# So what should happen to these two defendants? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 14, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740 "2010-09-14T17:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/161 "2010-09-22T17:53:05Z")
Killing these men won’t undo the crime, it would be nothing short of revenge. What do we want to accomplish now that they are in custody? Reformation? Rehabilitation? Punishment? Removal from society? What does execution do that incarceration does not? Execution is no punishment because the condemned doesn’t remember it, he goes to sleep. Solitary confinement is punishment after a few weeks. Even then, creating more suffering won’t undo the past. These men must be removed from society, however. Perhaps they could be put to some use, preferrably in some capacity that would prevent others of their ilk from performing similar acts? Whatever that may look like, we know capital punishment is no deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/162 "2010-09-22T18:00:45Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > What I’m trying to say is that we should look at the events of each individual crime individually, and that some crimes are so henious that the people who commit them should not be kept alive. Again with the “kept alive.” If you’re going to indulge in brutality at least be straightforward about it. These people don’t need medical treatment to stay alive; they just need you folks to keep your poisons and massive electrical shocks away from them. Should be killed, is what you were looking for. > [@](#): > > How would you handle the case of [Charles Rothenberg](http://crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9616), who set his own son on fire? David suffered third degree burns over 90% of his body, yet managed to survive. What gives this man the right to serve only seven years? The Constitution of the United States of America. Now, I answered yours… ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/163 "2010-09-22T18:22:47Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Execution is no punishment because the condemned doesn’t remember it, he goes to sleep. It’s not the fact that he goes to sleep that is the punishment; it’s the not waking up part. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/164 "2010-09-22T18:51:41Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > > > Execution is no punishment because the condemned doesn’t remember it, he goes to sleep. > > It’s not the fact that he goes to sleep that is the punishment; it’s the not waking up part. Which is punishment/rehabilitation/restitution how? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/165 "2010-09-22T19:15:47Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > **SFG** , I can’t tell if it was clear or not, but I meant to agree with you. Yup. What I wrote in response to you was agreeing/expanding. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > It pisses me off no end that he went to the gas chamber thinjking he was some big time terrorist, instead of seeing 9//11 and realizing that when he came to terrorism, he was chickenshit. … You’re \*glad \*that a massive terrorist attack succeeded in killing 3,000 people and setting a new record because it showed up another terrorist who was already dead? > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > What I’m trying to say is that […] some crimes are so henious that the people who commit them should not be kept alive. But you haven’t provided a good explanation yet. The outstanding issues are: 1.) Why is killing a better option than life in prison without parole? 2.) What are the criteria for “so heinous”? 3.) How do you ensure that these criteria are applied unilaterally, without regard to the race, class, etc. of the perpetrator or victim? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/166 "2010-09-22T19:34:13Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > … You’re \*glad \*that a massive terrorist attack succeeded in killing 3,000 people and setting a new record because it showed up another terrorist who was already dead? > > [ Well, she didn’t actually say _that._ ETA: that’s not to say I didn’t find what she actually _did_ say silly. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/167 "2010-09-22T20:16:46Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Well, she didn’t actually say _that._ Of course she didn’t say it explicitly–and I doubt very much that she actually feels that way. But that’s essentially the implication of what she’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![jordanr2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jordanr2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jordanr2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/168 "2010-09-23T00:56:37Z")
I haven’t gotten all the way through this thread and probably won’t because it’s too depressing - lots of sadistic stuff here under the guise of righteous vengeance. Never mind the death penalty, which is an intrinsically sick concept - I can’t get my mind around the whole “let’s make people suffer horribly for the rest of their lives if we think they’ve made others suffer” thing. It all just seems like bloodlust to me. Stick 'em in a cell and give them three meals a day, but what’s the point of additionally slavering over the thought of feeding prisoners horrible things, or chopping off their extremities to make sure they won’t escape? (The thought of denying them medical care is especially depraved - I never thought I’d actually see someone on a board like this advocating such a thing.) Does doing that, or fantasizing about doing that, add anything to the sum total of goodness in the world? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/169 "2010-09-23T01:06:49Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > Stick 'em in a cell and give them three meals a day, but what’s the point of additionally slavering over the thought of feeding prisoners horrible things, or chopping off their extremities to make sure they won’t escape? I’ve always thought sewing Hitler, Mengele and Goebbels together after amputating a leg and arm from each would be pretty cool, so I understand the concept, but I agree with you that it is pretty sick. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/170 "2010-09-23T14:37:33Z")
> [@jordanr2](#): > > \*\* Some stuff \* \*Does doing that, or fantasizing about doing that, add anything to the sum total of goodness in the world? Why ever would you assume the existence of a relationship between “goodness” and “reaction to vile action?” Humans are full of empty bravado. I should be very surprised if any of the posters you refer to would actually _participate_ in the acts they prescribe. It’s one thing to snatch the moral high ground and pose as wise, just, and tough; it’s another altogether to actively harm and prolong the suffering of another. Anyone who can do that is no less dangerous than the prisoners. People who are pro-death penalty should be made to look the condemned in the eye as they push the button that ends the life. I wonder how many would change their minds once they realized what they’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/171 "2010-09-23T15:04:02Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > People who are pro-death penalty should be made to look the condemned in the eye as they push the button that ends the life. I wonder how many would change their minds once they realized what they’ve done. High-horse holier-than-thou claptrap. Everyone might not have it in them to throw the switch, but it doesn’t automatically make them wrong. And if someone did to my family what the scumbags in the OP did, I have little doubt I’d _find_ it in me. And to those who say the death penalty is about revenge and bloodlust, I have to reply: _So what?_ I think the families of the victims deserve revenge, and I make no apologies for believing that. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/172 "2010-09-23T15:08:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’ve always thought sewing Hitler, Mengele and Goebbels together after amputating a leg and arm from each would be pretty cool, so I understand the concept, but I agree with you that it is pretty sick. What, you don’t want to go \*Human Centipede \*style? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/173 "2010-09-23T15:13:50Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > And to those who say the death penalty is about revenge and bloodlust, I have to reply: _So what?_ I think the families of the victims deserve revenge, and I make no apologies for believing that. Soooooo revenge and bloodlust _ **aren’t the point of our justice system** _. It’s one thing to fantasize about them; it’s another entirely to try to carry them out. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/174 "2010-09-23T15:35:42Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Everyone might not have it in them to throw the switch, but it doesn’t automatically make them wrong. Yes it does! If you don’t believe strongly enough that the deed is worth doing personally, then how can you possibly assert the deed is worth doing at all? Good grief, having someone else do your dirty work is the height of dodging personal responsibility. > [@Wheelz](#): > > High-horse holier-than-thou claptrap And killing a helpless prisoner who killed a helpless prisoner isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/175 "2010-09-23T16:10:22Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Yes it does! If you don’t believe strongly enough that the deed is worth doing personally, then how can you possibly assert the deed is worth doing at all? Good grief, having someone else do your dirty work is the height of dodging personal responsibility. Exactly - the family deserves revenge??? Put me on a jury where a father has killed the man who raped and murdered his daughters, and it is quite possible I will find a way to vote for acquittal. But to use his grief to justify societies vicarious revenge fantasies strikes me as particularly tasteless. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/176 "2010-09-23T16:48:31Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > In his opening statement, the defense attorney referred to the beatings, rapes, kidnapping, robbery, murders and arson as “events that got out of hand.” They were willing to plead guilty in exchange for life in prison, but the prosecutor wants Death. And I agree. Parts of me says “Amen.” screw the lethal injection, they need to bring back the electric chair or beheading. However, I do see that the Death penalty is not fair or equally applied. I have been reading a lot about the ADX Supermax. Prisoners are in their tiny cells in isolation nearly 24 hours a day with minimal human contact. Prisoners are unable to communicate with any other prisoner. The prisoner is alone and isolated, for years. If the prisoner “behaves” they can get reading material, a radio and TV which shows religious and educational programming. However, this can be taken away. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/177 "2010-09-23T18:16:49Z")
I’m getting way behind in this conversation. Refer to [this](http://social.jrank.org/pages/1344/Prisons-Death-Row-Demographics-Issues.html) for Death Row Demographics. It appears quite anti-death-penalty, so maybe it’s an agreeable source. > [@Edward Lazarus](#): > > “We know to a moral certainty that the single most important factor in whether a defendant receives a death sentence is the quality of his lawyer.” I agree and say we need to make the system of gathering evidence and cross-examination better. It doesn’t change the fact that if the person is judged a lethal danger in a good trial that I think they should be executed. > [@Inmates on Death Row in 2002](#): > > White 1,683 (45.27%); Black 1,605 (43.17%) and “in Philadelphia, the odds of receiving the death penalty were nearly 4 times higher if the defendant was black” Which indicate that not everyone given the death penalty is non-white. Philladelphia may have more offenders or more bad lawyers, and I believe prejudice is still around. Prejudice needs to be worked on and justice will follow. > [@Calvin Burdine trial](#): > > Burdine sought to overturn his 1983 conviction on the grounds that his court-appointed attorney had slept through much of the trial. This shows that the judge should have disbarred the attorney and restarted the trial. Failure to do this means the judge should be disbarred and the case retried. Evidence is still evidence and should be used to convict. Burdine doesn’t even need my idea of the one-appeal-within-six-months because his first trial should never have been enacted with a sleeping attorney. More checks and balances would prevent abuse of the system. > [@jordanr2](#): > > Never mind the death penalty, which is an intrinsically sick concept - I can’t get my mind around the whole “let’s make people suffer horribly for the rest of their lives if we think they’ve made others suffer” thing. It all just seems like bloodlust to me. My point too. But I would say that it is better on everyone to just execute them painlessly. I don’t like all this bloodlust talk. I do realize that many are just exaggerating to relieve the tension in a tense topic. I don’t think suffering is useful. Prisoners should be allowed to rehabilitate. The ones deamed a lethal, nonrehabilitable danger should be executed. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/178 "2010-09-23T19:21:34Z")
> [@Corner\_Case](#): > > Which indicate that not everyone given the death penalty is non-white. No one claimed otherwise. Just that you’re more likely to be killed by the state if \*you \*are \*not \*white and/or if you kill someone who \*is \*white. > [@](#): > > The ones deamed a lethal, nonrehabilitable danger should be executed. 1.) What if someone is someone committed a horribly violent murder, but one that there is no risk they will repeat (i.e., they are not “lethal”)? 2.) How do you determine if someone is “nonrehabilitable”? 3.) If someone commits a horribly violent murder but is “rehabilitable” by your criteria, do you think they should be eligible for parole? 4.) Why “should” they be executed? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/179 "2010-09-23T19:33:12Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Soooooo revenge and bloodlust _ **aren’t the point of our justice system** _. It’s one thing to fantasize about them; it’s another entirely to try to carry them out. There is certainly some overlap, at least. > [@Dictionary.com](#): > > jus·tice > –noun > the administering of deserved punishment or reward. > —Idioms > bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one’s misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice. > > * * * > > revenge > — n > the act of retaliating for wrongs or injury received; vengeance > — vb > to inflict equivalent injury or damage for (injury received); retaliate in return for ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/180 "2010-09-23T19:52:25Z")
Somebody drunkenly runs over my brother and kills him, so they are sent to prison. That’s justice. Somebody drunkenly runs over my brother and kills him, so I break into their house and kill their daughter. That’s revenge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740.md?page=10)