Amazing, simply amazing.
Catholic Seminarian posting here…
The first thing to remember is that there is a distinction between an invalid mass and an illict mass… In simple terms an invalid mass is such that the manner in which it is carried out is so incorrect that it doesn’t meet a bare minimum standard and the eucharistic sacrifice itself hasn’t happened - ie what has happened wasn’t a mass at all… An illict mass is one where the manner in which it is carried out is flawed (and this can be a very serious matter depending on how grave the defects are) but not to the extent that it prevents ‘Mass’ from happening…
Now, the dividing line between what would make a mass invalid and what would make it illict isn’t always clear and not having studied it yet in great depth I’d rather not comment… However, one of the aspects about which one can be relatively clear is the material for consecration…
What the church law demands is that the bread be made of wheaten flour, pure water, baked in an oven or between two iron plates and ‘not corrupt’ ie. relatively fresh… For Latin Rite Catholics the bread should be unleavened, though I understand that some/all of the Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches may use leavened bread. Additions to the above ingredients should be of negligable amounts and if possible avoided.
The wine used made should be the pure, naturally fermented juice of the grape. Altar wine which has been certified should only be used as it is produced in a way which fulfills these conditions. i.e. the bottle of plonk one buys from a normal wine merchant might not be naturally fermented or pure.
This is what is required in terms of material for a valid and a licit mass.
For grave reasons a priest might use material which does not not fulfill the above conditions… The classic example is the priest in a concentation camp… In which case the requirement would be that the bread and wine being consecrated is recogniseable as bread and grape-wine to a reasonable mind… eg a piece of normal bread and normal grape-wine… In this case, the bare elements (bread and wine) are present so that consecration can take place, albeit using materials which are less than ideal from a church law point of view… Whether doing this is right or wrong depends on the circumstances… I think that it would be generally conceded that in places where the Church is oppressed/unable to operate openly and acquire licit supplies or in the concentration camp example that it is better to have a Mass using illict materials than to not have Mass at all… In a normal Catholic Church (say in North America or Europe) there should not be an excuse for having Mass without the licit materials and I would imagine that a priest sins gravely by using illict materials when licit material should be readily availible… Situations in between are probably for discussion by theologians…
If the material used could not reasonably be described as bread and grape wine (say cookies and coke) then Mass is simply impossible - bread and wine are fundemental to the rite - and any attempt to carry out mass in such a situation is illicit and invalid (ie mass does not happen) - and a grave sin by the priest.
Regarding the question about the suicide victim, whilst suicide is still gravely sinful, current church practice is to take a compassionate approach to give the deceased the benefit of the doubt (regarding state of mind, last second repentance, etc…) and leave it up to God to judge…
Kerriensis
does any one really think that god cares whether the communion bread is leaven, gluten free or anything? I am sure jesus would look on amazed if he was around. whoops a GD. sorry!
Since it is the body of Christ… just leave it where it falls… after three days it should get up by itself.
In the case of the kid who was allergic to wheat, why was she still allergic after the wafer had been transformed into the Body of Christ? What does it say for a kid to be allergic to Jesus? Her name wasn’t ‘Damien’ by any chance, was it? :eek:
Sqweels, you miss the point of the Miracle of Transubstantiation. While the actual essence of the communion elements is transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, their “accidents” – the chemical and biological composition – remains that of bread and wine. In other words, if you consecrate a quart of port and then consume it, you may be drinking Jesus’s blood, but you’ll still get rip-roaring drunk. (That’s one reason why many priests need to be treated for alcoholism.)
It’s just the same as if you were allergic to, say, chromium, and I had an amputation and a prosthetic limb of chrome-plated steel. If I touched you with it, you would have an allergic reaction, not to me, but to the chrome plating on my prosthesis.
Amazing, simply amazing
Amazing, simply amazing
I like Spud’s answer better…
[sub]WHAT IS THE CORRECT SPF FACTOR FOR HELL?
we really do need more smilies…[/sub]
I’m declaring this one asked and answered.