# So, What SHOULD We Do About Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096 "2003-08-09T22:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/21 "2003-08-10T13:58:44Z")
Mehitabel, So the US will be a swipe of the magic wand make Iraq a Constitutional Republic ? If the US imposes something its hardly going to work since it wasnt their choice. Comparing to Japan isnt appropiate either since Japan was way more educated and advanced… and were following western ideals of development when they started the war. The natural tendency in Iraq now is for religious figures to have more authority and legitimacy. Christian Conservative Bush Govt. hates the idea of a religious govt. in Iraq ironically. They want to spread out political power as well… something not happening in the US either. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/22 "2003-08-10T13:59:41Z")
A little cite from [this article from 2002](http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/05/bowden.htm): \>The party seized control in 1968, and Saddam immediately became the real power behind his cousin Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr, the president and chairman of the new Revolutionary Command Council. Al-Ali was a member of that council. He was responsible for the north-central part of Iraq, including his home village. It was in Tikrit that he started to see Saddam’s larger plan unfold. Saddam’s relatives in al-Awja were throwing their newly ascendant kinsman’s name around, seizing farms, ordering people off their land. That was how things worked in the villages. If a family was lucky, it produced a strongman, a patriarch, who by guile, strength, or violence accumulated riches for his clan. Saddam was now a strongman, and his family was moving to claim the spoils. This was all ancient stuff. The Baath philosophy was far more egalitarian. It emphasized working with Arabs in other countries to rebuild the entire region, sharing property and wealth, seeking a better life for all. In this political climate Saddam’s family was a throwback. The local party chiefs complained bitterly, and al-Ali took their complaints to his powerful young friend. “It’s a small problem,” Saddam said. “These are simple people. They don’t understand our larger aims. I’ll take care of it.” Two, three, four times al-Ali went to Saddam, because the problem didn’t go away. Every time it was the same: “I’ll take care of it.” \>It finally occurred to al-Ali that the al-Khatab family was doing exactly what Saddam wanted them to do. This seemingly modern, educated young villager was not primarily interested in helping the party achieve its idealistic aims; rather, he was using the party to help him achieve his. Suddenly al-Ali saw that the polish, the fine suits, the urbane tastes, civilized manner, and the socialist rhetoric were a pose. The real story of Saddam was right there in the tattoo on his right hand. He was a true son of Tikrit, a clever al-Khatab, and he was now much more than the patriarch of his clan. Just FYI. The article is fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/23 "2003-08-10T14:23:06Z")
A bit long the article… they went to great lengths to make Saddam look more like a monster than before. I know people who lived in Bagdad and probably most of these stories are true… ``` It was pointed out... that the favoritism of one or two particular groups and allowing oneself to be surrounded only by a limited group of "trusted" advisors totally isolates a leader from reality. Saddam was all about Tikrit too because he could understand them and tribalism makes for more trust. ``` Now read the above paragraph and picture Bush and the oil cronies in his govt. Favoritism, close group and not trusting outside elements… much of these are in Bush too. Scary. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/24 "2003-08-10T14:49:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\*\ Cultures evolve. They grow up. They get better and expand their rights to more and more of their people. Iraq is still trapped in the idea of your clan and tribe being all-important, something that made the rise of Saddam possible. I’m afraid it would happen again if America just up and left, because the change in thinking is not yet there–most of the people just seem to be seeing America as another big tribe that’s supposed to dole out favors and gifts. \*\* A point well made. All the same, pretty much every single culture I can think of, past and present, has aspects to it which other cultures wouldn’t be able to identify with, or believe don’t belong in this day and age. Perhaps in some cases, I concede, a change is desirable. But who are you and I to impose that change? That kind of change needs to come from within, with the people concerned wanting it themselves. You mentioned sati and the caste system - the British did their bit to get rid of both, but they’re still around. Them, and a few more I could mention. However, the reason these practices are far less prevalent now than as they were 5 decades ago, is because it was the people who began thinking that perhaps it wasn’t the best way to go about things. And that’s how change works best. From within, not without. ---
**Author:** ![Porpoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Porpoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Porpoise)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/25 "2003-08-10T14:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\ ***Porpoise** , unfortunately your argument does not resonate entirely with Americans, because it’s the same one a lot of our slave-holders used before the Civil War to justify their owning of other people. It was their ‘peculiar institution’, part of their culture and heritage. Hey, your own country is still trying to get rid of suttee and the caste system–do you think they’re fine just because they’ve been around for a long time? As a modern Indian, aren’t you at all happy that India is a major and powerful nation and no longer a collection of serfs presided over by a bunch of allegedly benevolent rajahs? Because that’s your heritage. > > Cultures evolve. They grow up. They get better and expand their rights to more and more of their people. Iraq is still trapped in the idea of your clan and tribe being all-important, something that made the rise of Saddam possible. I’m afraid it would happen again if America just up and left, because the change in thinking is not yet there–most of the people just seem to be seeing America as another big tribe that’s supposed to dole out favors and gifts. \*\* Of course I don’t think that any practice is fine just because its been around a long time. I think that every society, including Iraqi, and American society could do with many changes. What I’m objecting to is the impostion of these changes by a foreign agency, and one, furthermore, which often acts only with its own best interests in mind. I don’t think the Iraqis see the Americans as just “another big tribe that’s supposed to dole out favors and gifts.” I think they are smart enough to see it for what it is – an invading nation, protecting its own interests. What really bugs me is that America loves to project itself as a big brother nation – ready to step when any human rights violation comes to light – when the truth is that in many cases America has been responsible for bringing totalitarian and brutal regimes to power – including the Baath regime. Please don’t think that I don’t want Iraq to give rights to more of its people and that I don’t condemn its treatment of women, for example. Besides these kinds of changes don’t happen overnight and are certainly never brought about by force – which at present is the only influence that America is capable of exerting over Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/26 "2003-08-10T14:57:14Z")
In fact US intervention makes it harder for Iraqi to embrace change… they certainly dont want to appear pro-US or US croonies. A UN multinational force would have legitimacy and more acceptance… making it easier for ordinary Iraqi to embrace change that much faster. So kudos for Bush in making some old habits even more entrenched than before. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/27 "2003-08-10T15:00:18Z")
Thanks for the explanation, Porpoise. I guess the only quibble I’d have with it is that maybe Saddam was the one imposing force and stopping the country from evolving, and maybe the US is the one setting things right. But I agree the postwar planning is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Porpoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Porpoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Porpoise)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/28 "2003-08-10T15:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\*Thanks for the explanation, Porpoise. I guess the only quibble I’d have with it is that maybe Saddam was the one imposing force and stopping the country from evolving, and maybe the US is the one setting things right. But I agree the postwar planning is a mess. \*\* No problem, Mehitabel 🙂 Well Saddam was helped to power by the US so I think that the US can’t escape scot-free. As for the US setting things right, we’ll see. They could start by using some of the money they spend guarding oil fields and pipelines in preventing the total anarchy which is prevailing there and by starting to involve the local people in the formation of govt. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/29 "2003-08-10T16:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > [**The heavy price of the US going it alone**](http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1059478727995&p=1012571727088) > _By Lael Brainard and Michael O’Hanlon_ > > What are the costs to the US of going it alone? The strategic costs will be hotly debated for years. But even if the strategic costs are ultimately mitigated by the efforts of US and other troops on the ground, by the US-led civil administration, and by the Iraqis, there will remain a financial cost to unilateralism. It can be calculated, at least in rough terms. And it is large. > > According to the Pentagon, the cost of the war in Iraq so far has been more than $48bn (£30bn). General Tommy Franks has estimated the US military occupation of Iraq could continue for two to four years. Outside experts suggest four years as a minimum, drawing from US reconstruction experience in the Balkans and elsewhere and based on Iraq’s deficit in trained security personnel. Troop totals and the associated monthly costs will eventually decline from the current $3.9bn a month but could still be $3bn a month for the next four years, if not longer. That translates into a total military cost of at least $150bn by mid-2007, not even counting the costs of war. > > On reconstruction costs, the administration has not yet submitted a new request to Congress; but by the end of this year it is likely to have depleted the $3.6bn Congress has so far made available. With Iraqi oil revenues unlikely to reach full potential soon, outside estimates of the US bill for reconstruction range from $5bn to $120bn a year over several years. That puts the total cost to the US at between **$150bn** and **$300bn**. > > Had President George W. Bush gained the support of important US allies - if not for waging war, at least for securing the peace - the burden could have been far smaller. > _[FT.com](http://FT.com)_ ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/30 "2003-08-10T16:23:00Z")
Great. I see that **december** has come up with a solution to all of the world’s problems: clone Americans. Of the conservative pro-Isreali kind I am sure. Fucking brilliant. 'cept that the last someone tried doing that it brought about WW-II. Are you sure you’re ready for a Third? 'cause I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/31 "2003-08-10T16:26:31Z")
And it’s going really bad there now? The only people I’ve heard from that say it’s really bad are ones that get all their info from the media. I have a great friend who is leaving to go work in Iraq, but before she did, she talked to her family there every other day. The family is doing great, and love their freedom. My other friend just got back and said it’s no where near as bad as he thought from the new reports. And can someone cite where all the revenues from Iraq have been used up? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/32 "2003-08-10T16:36:05Z")
GeeDubya should immediatly, instantly, throw himself prostrate before the United Nations, and beseech, implore, and beg for thier forgiveness. “We really screwed the pooch this time, guys, and we need help. Lots of help. Help, help, help. Send lawyers, guns and money, we done fucked up big time and down town.” If they serve him the Turd Sundae of Repentance, he should gobble it down with enthusiasm, ending with a “Yummy! Yummy!” and the appropriate grin. Thats what we SHOULD do about Iraq. I ain’t holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/33 "2003-08-10T16:48:10Z")
I have no idea. However, I do think it would help if the guy who insisted upon removing one government would spend a few minutes now and then working on how to replace it. Maybe he could take a daily few minutes out of his fund raising for reelection to get Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney, _et all_ together and say, “Fix it.” and then follow up on a regular basis to see how the plan is progressing. GW has a history of not thinking things through. Richard Brookhiser in the April _Atlantic_ argues that although he is intelligent and a good organizer, GW lacks the imagination required to think through the consequences of his proposals. And he doesn’t seem to insist that his project teams have a section devoted to examining the “what if’s” in order to be at least a little bit prepared for contingencies. I assume that, as with most of GW’s projects, someone else will have to come along and repair the damage, if it is repairable. As someone said (maybe it was **Collounsbury** ), Iraq isn’t really a country. It is an artificial collection of tribes that was assembled to meet the needs of European powers following the breakup of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Whatever the outcome is, it won’t be easy, it will take a long time and will, without much doubt, be a long way from GW’s expectations. Unless maybe Halliburton, Inc. winds up owning the whole damned works. ---
**Author:** ![Porpoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Porpoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Porpoise)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/34 "2003-08-10T16:51:02Z")
Svt4HIm asked where all the revenues from Iraq have been used up. They’ve been used to line the pockets of all the top executives of the companies that helped bring Bush to power. After all a friend in need… Certainly not to help the Iraqi people. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/35 "2003-08-10T16:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > Great. I see that **december** has come up with a solution to all of the world’s problems: clone Americans. Of the conservative pro-Isreali kind I am sure. Fucking brilliant. What, are you surprised? After all, in the **december** verse, being a conservative pro-Israeli American is the best thing in the world, and to suggest that folks would aspire to anything else is just anti-American treasonous chatter… :wally ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/36 "2003-08-10T16:58:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*What, are you surprised? After all, in the **december** verse, being a conservative pro-Israeli American is the best thing in the world, and to suggest that folks would aspire to anything else is just anti-American treasonous chatter… :wally \*\* Yep. I look down on cultures whose idea of fun is to run people through a plastic shredder feet first and listen to them scream. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/37 "2003-08-10T17:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Svt4Him \* > \*\*And it’s going really bad there now? The only people I’ve heard from that say it’s really bad are ones that get all their info from the media. I have a great friend who is leaving to go work in Iraq, but before she did, she talked to her family there every other day. The family is doing great, and love their freedom. My other friend just got back and said it’s no where near as bad as he thought from the new reports. > > And can someone cite where all the revenues from Iraq have been used up? \*\* I don’t know if all of the revenues form Iraq have been “used up” or not. They are woefully inadequate for the job at hand though. Here’s a link to the [Pentagon Commissioned CSIS Report on the Reconstrcution of Iraq](http://www.csis.org/isp/pcr/IraqTrip.pdf) It’s a good starting place for info on th ereconstruction effort in Iraq. Btw, it’s a commmonly cited source of media reports about the recon effort. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/38 "2003-08-10T17:14:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Yep. I look down on cultures whose idea of fun is to run people through a plastic shredder feet first and listen to them scream. YMMV \*\* A Hussein boy is defined as a culture now? Wow. New one to me. ---
**Author:** ![Porpoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Porpoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Porpoise)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/39 "2003-08-10T17:17:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Yep. I look down on cultures whose idea of fun is to run people through a plastic shredder feet first and listen to them scream. YMMV \*\* Well, I could say, I look down on cultures where schoolboys can carry weapons to school and gun down their classmates. I don’t think that it is right to characterise an entire culture or society based on the actions of one of its members. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/40 "2003-08-10T18:17:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Porpoise \* > \*\*I don’t think that it is right to characterise an entire culture or society based on the actions of one of its members. \*\* Not only is it “not right”… in anthropoligical terms, it’s complete and utter bunk. A culture is characterized (as should be obvious) by its history and by long-term aspects of observed behavior. Obviously, the actions of one person in the last few years barely factor into a culture with thousands of years of history behind it. Not that any of this matters to some of the Apologistas. Any justification is suitable for them, and they just _delight_ in trotting out the ol’ “plastic shredder” line. As **minty** might allude to, its their version of porn. The point is, obviously all cultures grow and improve. However, as has been pointed out, the only time improvements really take is when they come from within, not from without. The Iraqi culture will grow and change like any other culture, or it will die out. They should make their own choices, and improve their culture from within… trying to think like someone else is the wrong way to go. American culture has a lot of growing to do as well, by the way, and I wouldn’t say ours is an ideal way of life to emulate anyway. We’re still very young, in cultural terms, and we have many of the features of an immature way of life. One of those features is many of our members feeling that our culture is the “best” culture. Fortunately, it’s a good sign that not _all_ Americans feel that way. I like American culture, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s perfect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096.md?page=3)