# So, What SHOULD We Do About Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096 "2003-08-09T22:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/41 "2003-08-10T18:35:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Yep. I look down on cultures whose idea of fun is to run people through a plastic shredder feet first and listen to them scream. YMMV \*\* I’m not too keen on cultures that keep bulldozers in their backyards to mow down peace activists. So there you go, we can both play this imbecilic game of righteous outrage. Although, with your experience at it, no doubt you’ll ultimately “win.” BTW, **Avalonian** , _great post_. One that **december** would greatly benefit from by having it tattooed on his forehead. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/42 "2003-08-10T18:38:59Z")
decemebr is just here to spoil and bait. Why bother with him - get on with the damn debate, I say ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/43 "2003-08-10T21:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Yep. I look down on cultures whose idea of fun is to run people through a plastic shredder feet first and listen to them scream. Cite, please. Because all the evidence I’ve seen says the whole “Saddam Hussein’s government loved to toss people into plastic shredders and kill them” is all nonexistent conservative masturbatory bullstuff. It’s like the whole “them evil Iraqis are tossing babies out of incubators” garbage from the first Persian Gulf war – great for demonizing Hussein and rally the pro-war hawks, but 100% fabricated junk. So **december,** either put up with the plastic shredder cites, or stop spreading the FUD. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/44 "2003-08-11T03:27:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*decembe is just here to spoil and bait. \*\* There’s a sig line: _December – Supreme Spoiler and Master Baiter_ ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/45 "2003-08-11T03:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Cite, please. Because all the evidence I’ve seen says the whole “Saddam Hussein’s government loved to toss people into plastic shredders and kill them” is all nonexistent conservative masturbatory bullstuff. \*\* Here’s a cite from the _Guardian_, hardly a right wing newspaper. > [@](#): > > In one of Iraq’s most notorious prisons, Abu Ghraib in Baghdad, there were plastic shredders. They were a bit like an office paper shredder, except more robust, because they were designed to mince up old plastic. There, though, they were used to shred people. Just before the Americans arrived, Ms Clwyd says, the Iraqis “were executing all the remaining prisoners, and that’s why nobody is found alive at any of the prisons”. > > But just before the war, Ms Clwyd met people in Kurdistan who had been in Abu Ghraib - “in fact they were the last people to come out alive” - and they confirmed the story. “People were either put in head first, or foot first. If you went in foot first, it took you longer.” > > She checked the story afterwards with someone from the prison “and they said yes, there were plastic shredders there and they were dismantled just before the military got there”. [http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,982924,00.html](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,982924,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/46 "2003-08-11T03:53:59Z")
Please read this [first hand account of life in Iran to get a totally different picture of conditions there.](http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/aug2003/a080703c.html) A few highlights: > [@](#): > > – the news media has blown some things way out of proportion. The countryside is getting more safe by the day despite all the attacks you are hearing about > > – most of the Saddam Hussein thugs are being chased around like scared rabbits by Coalition forces. It is literally open season on them! We hunt them down like animals. > > – The railroad is running again! The railroad has not run since 1991.In the city of Hillah, the power stays on 24 hours a day and it has more power than prior to the war. Some Iraqis are worried about getting too much food from the coalition because they don’t have enough room in their homes to store it. > > – In the Universities, the girls have tossed their deshakas (long black dresses with head and face coverings) and are now wearing western style clothes > > – They are starting businesses everywhere. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Cite, please. Because all the evidence I’ve seen says the whole “Saddam Hussein’s government loved to toss people into plastic shredders and kill them” is all nonexistent conservative masturbatory bullstuff. \*\* Here’s a cite from the _Guardian_, hardly a right wing newspaper. > [@](#): > > In one of Iraq’s most notorious prisons, Abu Ghraib in Baghdad, there were plastic shredders. They were a bit like an office paper shredder, except more robust, because they were designed to mince up old plastic. There, though, they were used to shred people. Just before the Americans arrived, Ms Clwyd says, the Iraqis “were executing all the remaining prisoners, and that’s why nobody is found alive at any of the prisons”. > > But just before the war, Ms Clwyd met people in Kurdistan who had been in Abu Ghraib - “in fact they were the last people to come out alive” - and they confirmed the story. “People were either put in head first, or foot first. If you went in foot first, it took you longer.” > > She checked the story afterwards with someone from the prison “and they said yes, there were plastic shredders there and they were dismantled just before the military got there”. [http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,982924,00.html](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,982924,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/47 "2003-08-11T03:56:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Here’s a cite from the _Guardian_, hardly a right wing newspaper. [http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,982924,00.html](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,982924,00.html) \*\* Well, it is a bit of a stretch from " yes, there were plastic shredders there and they were dismantled just before the military got there" to “people were put in them alive.” Leaving that stretch aside, however, and even granting that it might possibly be true, how does that “data” help in deciding what to do about Iraq now? ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/48 "2003-08-11T04:18:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **In the city of Hillah, the power stays on 24 hours a day and it has more power than prior to the war.** In the city of [Basrah](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3139019.stm), residents are shooting the British because there is not enough power. Basrah is allegedly one of the greatest success stories of the occupation. The progress noted on that list is either impossible to quantify (“The countryside is a lot safer, really! No, I swear; yesterday we were shot at twenty-two times instead of twenty-one!”) or pathetically insignificant. I think it’s a really bad sign when the fact that a single Iraqi city might have a reliable power supply more than one-hundred days after the “end” of the war is cause for celebration. I don’t doubt that progress is being made, but so far it has been coming far too little and far too late. Baghdad fell on 9 April. It is now 10 August. We ought to have more to show for our efforts than one operating rail line and a few vague reassurances that, trust us, things will get better real soon. For a start, we ought to be able to prevent our soldiers from dying in a sick once-a-day lottery. It may be unfair to say that restoring basic security and services to a nation like Iraq should be easy, but it’s a hell of a lot easier than the Bush Administration’s stated aim of installing federalist, Western-style democracy. It should not be taking us months of fruitless effort to accomplish the former if we expect to have a reasonable hope of achieving the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/49 "2003-08-11T04:38:41Z")
In the end the sad thing is that it became obvious that there was no post war plan. That Rummy thought the liberated Iraqi was collaborate fully and somehow things would work. Soldiers were not trained or given specific instructions on how to deal with civil discontent… or how to avoid confrontation. This “learn on the job” method that costs the lives of US soldiers and Iraqi is absurd and sad. ( Mind you that many people are actually happy about this 1 a day casualty rate… its humiliating the US and especially Bush. Every dead GI is a few thousand less votes for Bush. I think its sad that soldiers should die for political reasons… or lack of a plan.) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/50 "2003-08-11T04:44:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > \*\* > Soldiers were not trained or given specific instructions on how to deal with civil discontent… or how to avoid confrontation. > \*\* In WWII specialy trained Military Government units followed the assault groups quite closely. The regular military units were there to organize communications and transportation for the purpose of supplying and coordinating the actions of the assault forces. The Military Government units’ job was to find leaders among the populace in the occupied territories and get civilian services restored as rapidly as possible. Of course the WWII leaders were experienced people with a modicum of foresight. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/51 "2003-08-11T04:47:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\* Of course the WWII leaders were experienced people with a modicum of foresight. \*\* ``` WWII Leaders were less worried about economic reasons for the war. The US army did protect the Oil Wells thou... we must give credit there... it was a well planned aspect of the Iraqi invasion. ``` ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/52 "2003-08-11T05:19:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*decemebr is just here to spoil and bait. Why bother with him - get on with the damn debate, I say \*\* Finally, someone speaks what is so painfully obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/53 "2003-08-11T05:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*decemebr is just here to spoil and bait. Why bother with him - get on with the damn debate, I say \*\* Why not just call him a ‘Hymie’ again? Heck, if you are going to treat this as a Pit thread, do it right! ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/54 "2003-08-11T09:40:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Please read this [first hand account of life in **Iran** to get a totally different picture of conditions there.](http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/aug2003/a080703c.html) Iran? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/55 "2003-08-11T13:59:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Iran? \*\* Sorry. I meant Iraq, of course. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/56 "2003-08-11T18:05:04Z")
I was against the war, and that hasn’t changed. But once the war was underway, my belief was that we owed it to the Iraqi people to stay and clean up our messes: to stay long enough to put some sort of stable, non-psychotic government on its feet with a good chance of lasting awhile. Now I wonder. I really think we need Bush to level with us about how long that’ll take, and what the cost will be, and decide based on that. If it’s going to cost more than we’d like to pay, maybe we’d better work toward what I consider a ‘quick exit’ - gradually work our way out as we do what we can to stabilize things in the next eighteen months to two years. Condi’s talk of a “generational commitment” is kinda scary - while I know she doesn’t mean that long of a military presence, I’m certain we’re not ready to be there for 8-10 years, and I can’t see that we can do the job right in much less than that, if ever. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/57 "2003-08-11T18:20:56Z")
This reminds me of another GD thread I started concerning (What I consider excessive) airline security measures. It is going to be so sad when the bills come due, and we start realizing all the other things we could have done with that huge amount of money. Even if you felt our action in Iraq was appropriate/desireable/defensible, when confronted with the true cost in dollars and lives, and the alternative expenditures we will need to forego to pay for it, it will be interesting to hear how and why it was necessary and worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/58 "2003-08-11T18:50:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Condi’s talk of a “generational commitment” is kinda scary - while I know she doesn’t mean that long of a military presence, I’m certain we’re not ready to be there for 8-10 years, and I can’t see that we can do the job right in much less than that, if ever. I expect the U.S. to be there much longer than that. Heck, the U.S. was in Saudi Arabia for 11 years after the Gulf war. If the U.S. maintained 50,000 troops there for the next 50 years, that would be a commitment on a scale equivalent to the commitment to South Korea. That seems to me to be about right. It also seems to me to be long overdue. In an area as volatile as the middle east, and as critical to the world’s economic and security health, I think maintaining a presence of that size there is perfectly appropriate. Even a permanent presence. What’s the absolute best-case scenario? Well, it seems to me that the U.S. can’t leave Iraq en masse until two major things have happened - one, Iraq has its own government that functions well, and two, Iraq has its own military capable of defending itself from aggressive neighbors. It’s a pretty bad neighborhood, after all. I don’t think anyone expects Iraq to have a mature functioning government in less than five years. First elections may be a year or two away, but it’s a far cry from that to having a complete governmental infrastructure. And how long will it take to rebuild a military? Years, certainly. New equipment has to be purchased, new doctrines approved, soldiers trained, logistical support built, infrastructure like airports and roads improved, etc. That takes money - money Iraq won’t have until full oil production ramps up. So I wouldn’t even expect that process to begin in earnest for a couple of years at least. I predict at least 75,000 - 100,000 troops in Iraq for five years, and then a semi-permanent presence of maybe half that size indefinitely thereafter. And that wouldn’t bother me a bit if I were an American. How many troops were in Europe throughout the cold war? How many in Okinawa? Many of those commitments can be scaled back dramatically. The new hotspot is the Middle East, so that’s where they’ll go. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/59 "2003-08-11T19:49:33Z")
The issue should be not IF but HOW this was done. If the UN had been properly brought in there would be way less bloodshed and destruction and certainly things would be running way more smoothly and the overall cost smaller and shared. ``` If the US retreats and caos ensues... then the $ and Blood was all in vain. ``` ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/60 "2003-08-11T19:56:21Z")
One has to wonder if you actually needed so many billions of dollars to go and orphan [that kid](http://www.dispatch.co.za/2003/04/17/foreign/AAWAR.HTM) and tear off both of his arms. The lack of planning of the aftermath of this invasion is astounding. It seems as if they are just making things up along the way. They only figured out the “fun” killing part and forgot to plan all the boring “reconstruction” bit. (The oil wells were secured and made to start pumping right away mind you). The US has all but explicitly redefined itself as an empire. As such, the question of “What should WE do about Iraq?” loses meaning. Who is WE? The empire is persuing “strategic” interests in the region. Period. “Collateral” damage is not an issue. Human life is worth nothing, unless, perhaps, maybe, if it is the life of a citizen of the empire. The empire will not “pull out” of Iraq unless: a) No more money can be made out of the “reconstruction” b) So many soldiers of the empire start to die that even Caesar gets squeamish. And that ain’t gonna happen. In the fairy tale universe where the US abandons it’s callous Empire building aspirations (fat chance) and returned to the international community, then what should be done, in my opinion, is to put out an explicit date for free elections in Iraq. Maybe in 1 year. And schedule a complete pull-out in another year. But that is NOT going to happen. Half of the US is bloody comfortable with their “citizen of the empire” status. They reason that Caesar must be doing what is best to protect their world. No questions asked, as long as the money flows. “It’s the economy, stupid” :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096.md?page=4)