# So, What SHOULD We Do About Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096 "2003-08-09T22:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/61 "2003-08-11T20:27:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* Well, it seems to me that the U.S. can’t leave Iraq en masse until two major things have happened - one, Iraq has its own government that functions well, and two, Iraq has its own military capable of defending itself from aggressive neighbors. It’s a pretty bad neighborhood, after all. > \*\* This "government that functions well. What does that mean? Is that a government that functions as US decoded what constitutes “well,” or a government that suits a nation made of of Moslems of at least two varieties, a lot of tribes, Kurds, etc., etc. The two are not necessarily equivalent. And this army in the “pretty bad neighborhood.” Will it need nuclear and biological weapons for defense? We seemed have felt that we needed them at one time. Will we, or the Iraqis decide what defense they need in that “pretty bad neighborhood?” And I think your comparison of our length of stay in Korea and Saudi Arabia is false. We were not in either of those two countries as a defacto government because we had kicked out their previous govnment by a preemptive war. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/62 "2003-08-11T20:30:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*… functions as US decoded \*\* Oh my, that should be “functions as the US decides” I must be the world’s worst previewer. ---
**Author:** ![Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc79bd/32.png) [@Hammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hammer)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/63 "2003-08-11T20:49:08Z")
It strikes me as funny how many people assume that there was/is no after war planning. How many public projects can you point to in your home town that completed on time and on budget? I’m looking out my window at a section of I-40 that was supposed to be completed 2 years ago? So, I guess there was no planning for this road. They just went out and started digging and pouring concrete. There couldn’t have possiblely been any planning right? I guess in your world things always go perfectly according to plan. I know this was supposed to have already been wrapped up and turned over to the Iraqies(sp) by now because we do this so frequently that we have the time table and procedures down pat. Anybody who thought this would take months and not years wasn’t paying attention. To answer the op we continue along the path we started. We continute to repair or build vital infrastructure. We continue to introduce self government at the local level and build slowly toward a national government. I can’t see how it would be possible to leave before at least one peaceful exchange of president/prime minister in the new government. If this does lead to modern, stable, democratic Iraq then it will be worth the cost. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/64 "2003-08-11T20:51:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > _(Re: Plastic shredders for torture in Iraq?)_ > Here’s a cite from the _Guardian_, hardly a right wing newspaper. Sorry, but that’s just a repeat of the same bullstuff lie – that “Kenneth Joseph”, a pastor with the Assyrian Church, went to Iraq as a human shield, learned about Saddam’s atrocities with the plastic shredders, and got so nauseated he went back home and supported the war. Unfortunately, Kenneth Joseph doesn’t exist. Cites: > [@](#): > > [**Saddam Paper Shredder Story A Lie Concocted by Moon/UPI**](http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/03/59508.html) > Now the Bush II folks are spreading similar “urban myths” to keep American bloodlust at fever pitch. The latest: UPI (now owned by Bush’s friend the Reverend Moon) and his fellow rightwing religious fanatic Pat Robertson of the Christian Broadcasting Network are currently spreading around a manufactured story about how Saddam fed an officer into a paper shredder, delighting in his screams…this lurid fiction was reported “first hand” by a “human shield pastor” who from the “Assyrian Church of the East.” **Turns out there is no such “pastor,” and, by extension, no such person.** > [@](#): > > [**Wag the Kennel? The Kenneth Joseph Story**](http://www.counterpunch.org/lipton04122003.html) > Joseph’s itensely emotional transformation from dedicated antiwar activist into ardent supporter of the war in Iraq was attributed to those interviews. Within 3 days, the right wing media was saturated with this story, which also received coverage in the mainstream press. > Incredibly, nowhere has **a single photo or segment from these 14 hours of interviews been published,** nor do any other journalists who have covered this story claimed that they saw the videos. > > _(snip)_ > > The Philadelphia Daily News covered the human shield expedition from London to Iraq, which comprised over 200 people from 30 countries travelling in red double-decker buses on a gueling 3,000 mile10-day trek. They went to guard civilian sites, such as schools, hospitals, water-treatment facilities and electrical plants. After the Department of State travel ban prohibited American citizens from going to Iraq without obtaining special clearance, all human shield groups needed to apply for this clearance. … **None of the peace organizations or human shield groups whom I contacted had ever heard of Kenneth Joseph, nor is his name found on any human shield-related websites.** Bottom line: The whole “plastic shredder torture story” is pure Republican porn, with no basis in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/65 "2003-08-11T21:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > This "government that functions well. What does that mean? Is that a government that functions as US decoded what constitutes “well,” or a government that suits a nation made of of Moslems of at least two varieties, a lot of tribes, Kurds, etc., etc. The two are not necessarily equivalent. I mean a government that can maintain an infrastructure, provide a police force, stabilize the currency, manage the oil assets of Iraq, and fund and keep a military that stays under the control of the government. Whether that government is a democracy, a theocracy, a dictatorship, or is run by aliens from Rigel V is irrelevant to this requirement. At the very least, a functioning government must be in place before the U.S. leaves. Do you agree? > [@](#): > > And this army in the “pretty bad neighborhood.” Will it need nuclear and biological weapons for defense? We seemed have felt that we needed them at one time. Will we, or the Iraqis decide what defense they need in that “pretty bad neighborhood?” Who seemed to have felt that they needed them at one time? The only person I know who feels he needed WMD was Saddam Hussein. No, obviously Iraq needs a large enough military to police its borders and discourage adventurism from Syria, Iran, or Turkey. Security guarantees from the U.S. will help that a lot, as will a largish U.S. military presence. > [@](#): > > And I think your comparison of our length of stay in Korea and Saudi Arabia is false. We were not in either of those two countries as a defacto government because we had kicked out their previous govnment by a preemptive war. Fine. Use Okinawa as an example. Or West Germany. No one is saying that a U.S. presence there for a generation means that the U.S. will occupy and control the country for that long. I expect a sovereign Iraqi government will be operating within five years. I also expect that that government will ask the U.S. to stay there with a fairly large force for the foreseeable future, because it will be in their own interests. The analogy with Germany or Japan might be useful here. I don’t think anyone would claim that the German or Japanese governments were just puppets of the U.S. after the 1950’s, and yet in both countries a large military presence remained. The U.S. would not allow governments to be formed which were overtly hostile to the United States, but within that very large area of lattitude the governments of those countries were free to do as they chose. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/66 "2003-08-11T21:41:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Bottom line: The whole “plastic shredder torture story” is pure Republican porn, with no basis in fact. \*\* Your source, Indymedia, isn’t reliable. E.g., the San Francisco Bay Area local organizing unit of Indymedia seriously repoerts that [**9/11 was a hoax. This is no longer a wild conspiracy assertion; it is a fact, supported by thousands of other verifiable facts**](http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1604706_comment.php)😃 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/67 "2003-08-11T22:31:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hammer \* > \*\* > It strikes me as funny how many people assume that there was/is no after war planning. > \*\* Have you ever heard of the [Office of Special Plans](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199309)? You see, it’s not so much that there _wasn’t_ pre-war planning for the post-war phase so much as the Bush Admin decided to use the politically pleasing and expedient info and analyses instead of the ones coming out of the State Dept, CIA et al. The info and analyses coming from our established professional agencies showed that the job would be too hard to sell to the electorate and Congress. The projection based on the intel provided by the Iraqi National Congress’ [Ahmed Chalabi](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3326581#post3326581) and the cabal in the OSP showed that we’d be greeted by the Iraqi people and that we’d have an Iraqi government up and running by **early June**. This isn’t a case where the best planning and intel were used and mistakes happened anyway. This is an instance where intel and analyses that were known to be unreliable and untrustworthy were cobbled together to not only to find sufficient justifications for launching the invasion the way that we did, but be find a reconstruction and exit plan that was palatable to the electorate and Congress. The CIA and the DIA repeatedly warned the Bush Admin before the war about many of the hazards and pitfalls that Wolfowitz has described as “hard to imagine.” Wolfowitz has tried to act like there was no way that _any_one could’ve forseen some of the difficulties that the reconstruction efforts have faced. Several intel agencies put together plans and advice about the reconstruction of Iraq that were ignored in favor of more favorable, (though less realistic), projections. This why there was a projection for an interim Iraqi government in early June. For some strange reason, (that I’ve not been able to track down even the official explanation of), the Pentagon was put in charg of nation building in Iraq instead of the State Dept who’re the traditional ones for such jobs. The State Dept has more experience in such things. I suspect that the plans and projections that the SD wanted to use were not as pleasant as those of the Pentagon. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hammer \* > \*\* > Anybody who thought this would take months and not years wasn’t paying attention. \*\* This is exactly the objection to what the Bush Admin was selling and sold. Exactly the objection to their mismanagement of the whole affair. They have yet to provide a comrhensive projected budget for what is estimated to be at least a hundred **billion** dollar project of reconstructing Iraq. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hammer \* > \*\* > How many public projects can you point to in your home town that completed on time and on budget? I’m looking out my window at a section of I-40 that was supposed to be completed 2 years ago? So, I guess there was no planning for this road. They just went out and started digging and pouring concrete. There couldn’t have possiblely been any planning right? I guess in your world things always go perfectly according to plan. > \*\* Using your road building analogy: It turns out that the highway Dept won’t authorize a budget sufficient to redo the 100 miles of road between A and B. What we’ll do is make a road measuring group that’ll give us a “better” measurement of the distance between A and B. If they can measure it in such a way that A and B are only 50 miles apart, then we can get authorization for a project to redo the highway between A and B. When it became apparent in the planning stages that we wouldn’t have enough MPs to deal with the expected number of POWs, the number of expected POWs was revised to accommodate the number of MPS we had rather than finding a way to get more MPs. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/68 "2003-08-11T22:35:33Z")
Plastic shredders still aren’t a part of Iraqi culture\*\*.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/69 "2003-08-11T23:47:06Z")
The State Department is under Colin Powell… who has few friends in the Bush Cartel… so that might be the reason they were kept out initially. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/70 "2003-08-12T00:03:13Z")
Yeah, I 'm guessing that it’s something similar to that. Do you know what the official story was? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/71 "2003-08-12T00:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > Who seemed to have felt that they needed them at one time? The only person I know who feels he needed WMD was Saddam Hussein. > \*\* Was I dreaming or didn’t the US have, and still have nuclear weapons including hydrogen bombs up to 50 megaton yield? And aren’t we now in the process of destroying serin gas containers right now? So at one time, I repeat, **we** thought **we** needed such weapons. My question was, since you seem to agree that that is a “bad neighborhood” who decides what the future Iraq government needs for defence? And, while I’m at it, is your definition of what will constitute a suitable Iraq government the same as GW’s, or for that matter Iraq’s? If you look around at the US and its infrastructure, unemployment, poverty and other internal problems, I’m a little put off by your arrogant assumption that we know best. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/72 "2003-08-12T00:11:15Z")
Paul Bremer is a State Department appointee, and is widely seen as having been a concession to Colin Powell. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/73 "2003-08-12T00:22:28Z")
Why did that first General (forgot his name… short guy that looks like Tom Clancy) chosen to take over Iraq get dismissed so quickly ? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/74 "2003-08-12T00:23:02Z")
**Sam** , do you know the official reason given for turning the rebuilding of Iraq ove to the Pentagon instead of the State Dept? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/75 "2003-08-12T12:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*Was I dreaming or didn’t the US have, and still have nuclear weapons including hydrogen bombs up to 50 megaton yield? \*\* [sidebar] As far as I can tell, no. After researching this for another thread (about detonating bombs in Antarctica or Greenland), the biggest I could come up with from the U.S. was 9 MT. The Russians had 100 MT devices, and did a test of one of them @50 MT. [/sidebar] ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/76 "2003-08-12T16:27:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Your source, Indymedia, isn’t reliable. Dismissing one source doesn’t dismiss the entire argument, **december.** Or are you telling me that “Kenneth Joseph” actually exists, just because a source you disagree with says otherwise? At the very least, I find it odd that a guy with a story as horrifying as his couldn’t even get five minutes on _60 Minutes_ or _The Today Show_ to share his tale with the rest of the world – instead, it all boils down to the same bogus name, the same bogus UPI story, the same Republican porn. (Say, how many “industrial-strength plastic shredders” have we found in Iraq, anyway? Or are they buried with the 500,000 tons of WMDs Saddam supposedly had?) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/77 "2003-08-12T16:28:20Z")
Sorry, I misunderstood the message to suggest that we thought SADDAM needed WMD. Which is reasonable, because otherwise it’s a bizarre point to make. Whether or not the U.S. thought it needed nuclear weapons is irrelevant to whether or not Iraq needs them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/78 "2003-08-12T16:37:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > **You see, it’s not so much that there _wasn’t_ pre-war planning for the post-war phase so much as the Bush Admin decided to use the politically pleasing and expedient info and analyses instead of the ones coming out of the State Dept, CIA et al. [snip] > The CIA and the DIA repeatedly warned the Bush Admin before the war about many of the hazards and pitfalls that Wolfowitz has described as “hard to imagine.” Wolfowitz has tried to act like there was no way that _any_one could’ve forseen some of the difficulties that the reconstruction efforts have faced. > Several intel agencies put together plans and advice about the reconstruction of Iraq that were ignored in favor of more favorable, (though less realistic), projections.** Preach it, brother. Another thing that Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the gang screwed up in prewar planning was the number of troops they’d need for the mission. Anyone remember the grumbling from the military about the small number of troops assigned to the mission while the war was on? What was on hand at the time was enough to win the conventional war, but inadequate to police the country afterwards. They’d planned on the _Iraqi Army_ of all things to help them in post war security. It didn’t take a genius to realize that the troops available in field were likely to be insufficient, I could have told them that myself. Rumsfeld had his revolution in military affairs to sell, though. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/79 "2003-08-18T11:05:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rashak Mani \* > In the end the sad thing is that it became obvious that there was no post war plan. That Rummy thought the liberated Iraqi was collaborate fully and somehow things would work. > > Soldiers were not trained or given specific instructions on how to deal with civil discontent… or how to avoid confrontation. > > This “learn on the job” method that costs the lives of US soldiers and Iraqi is absurd and sad. > > ( Mind you that many people are actually happy about this 1 a day casualty rate… its humiliating the US and especially Bush. Every dead GI is a few thousand less votes for Bush. I think its sad that soldiers should die for political reasons… or lack of a plan.) The prospects in Iraq are not good. The public order and safety situation is not getting better; if anything, it’s getting worse by the day and the situation may become politically untenable. The authorities installed by the US are seen as puppets by a large part of the population and, in any case, the chances they would be accepted by everybody were zero. There’s no country in the world where there are no political rivalries and discrepancies and any group who has outside support, ipso facto loses points and credibility. The occupation forces are incapable of keeping order and making reconstruction possible. The USA does not want to dedicate the resources it would take. > [@](#): > > [http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/135476\_iraq18.html](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/135476_iraq18.html) > Saboteurs take out Baghdad water - Oil pipeline to Turkey burning > > Saboteurs blew up a water main in northern Baghdad yesterday, forcing engineers to cut off water to the entire capital and raising new concerns that insurgents are hitting Iraq’s infrastructure to slow its recovery. > > The water-main bombing came as two oil fires raged out of control along an oil pipeline to Turkey, halting exports just days after they started. The first blaze appeared to be sabotage, a coalition spokesman said. > > In new violence, a mortar attack on a Baghdad prison being used by the United States killed six Iraqis. Hours later, U.S. soldiers mistakenly shot and killed a cameraman for the Reuters news agency who was filming outside the prison. > > A new group of resistance fighters has said it would battle the U.S.-led occupation forces whether or not the coalition helps rebuild the country after the war. The Iraqi National Islamic Resistance Movement made the comments in a videotape aired on the Al-Jazeera television network. I just can’t see things getting better. The US cannot win and it cannot quit; all it can do is muddle along. I think in the end it will turn out to be a very expensive lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096/80 "2003-08-18T14:53:40Z")
An expensive lesson that voters should learn faster than Bush hopefully… legitimacy is not a dirty word nor is UN. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-we-do-about-iraq/194096.md?page=3)