# So what will it take for there to be serious gun control debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2019, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166 "2019-08-04T09:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/241 "2019-08-06T17:30:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How are you gonna register 300 Million guns? Same way we register that many cars. And examine and license their owners, too. You got any \*constructive \*ideas? You even recognize mass murder as a problem? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/242 "2019-08-06T17:30:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > … > > We propose mental health solutions, we propose programs to alleviate poverty, and those are fought against by the same people who fight to keep guns in the hands of crazy people… No one wants guns in the hands of crazy people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/243 "2019-08-06T17:31:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one wants guns in the hands of crazy people. And to prevent this, what do you propose? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/244 "2019-08-06T17:31:51Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > …PoC have the legal right to buy guns, to carry guns, open or concealed, legally, and they’re already doing it now and have been for years, and I don’t see conservatives being sufficiently intimidated by it to advocate gun control. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/245 "2019-08-06T17:31:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it’s wrong. Gun advocates don’t want murder and terrorism. I think it’s more accurate to say they feel that murder and terrorism directed at other people is a price they’re willing to accept in order to own guns themselves. There’s murder and terrorism everywhere, including nations with very strict gun control. Gun control doesnt stop those things, or even slow them down. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/246 "2019-08-06T17:34:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one wants guns in the hands of crazy people. Except Trump… and his enablers in congress. > **[Trump Calls For Mental Health Action After Shooting; His Budget Would Cut...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/15/586095437/trump-calls-for-mental-health-action-after-shooting-his-budget-would-cut-program)** > > The president offered his sympathies to victims and the nation. He also said mental health problems need to be addressed but he offered no plan for doing that. > [@](#): > > But the budget blueprint also slashes spending for the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration by $665 million. Additionally, Bloomberg reported the National Institute of Mental Health would see a 30 percent reduction in funding — a half a billion dollar decrease — in 2019. > > And as NPR’s Scott Horsely noted, nearly a year ago the president signed a bill making it easier for people with mental illness to buy guns. > > Trump Repeals Rule Designed To Block Gun Sales To Certain Mentally Ill People > > The new measure rolled back an Obama-era rule that would have required the Social Security Administration to send records of some beneficiaries with severe mental disabilities to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System. NPR’s Susan Davis reported, about 75,000 people found mentally incapable of managing their financial affairs would have been affected. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/247 "2019-08-06T17:35:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have any suggestions that involve prevention? Yes. Constitutional carry. When a shooter has to consider the realistic chance that there will be someone to oppose them, they will rethink their plans- and if they armor up, they are much more likely to be spotted and stopped first. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/248 "2019-08-06T17:36:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually to prevent Mass Shootings, we need to repeal the 1st Ad. > > Not a very happy idea is it? > > Or perhaps we could get the media to voluntarily agree not to disclose the names of the shooters, like they agree not to disclose the names of rape victims. Ah yes! There is no way to prevent mass shootings other than repealing the first amendment. How do you like that libruls? Try to take away the amendment we care about, and we’ll just take away that amendment that you and your fake news media seem to care ao much about! And, why does the librul media care more about protecting lying rape “victims” than it does about the real victims here: gun owners? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/249 "2019-08-06T17:37:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Except Trump… and his enablers in congress. > > [Trump Calls For Mental Health Action After Shooting; His Budget Would Cut Programs : The Two-Way : NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/15/586095437/trump-calls-for-mental-health-action-after-shooting-his-budget-would-cut-program) Now you have to define crazy. What criteria will you use to deprive someone of their rights? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/250 "2019-08-06T17:37:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Gun control simply doesnt work- it can’t work to reduce mass killings. It could, maybe reduce violent crime a bit. This here is for you [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=879994](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=879994) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/251 "2019-08-06T17:38:14Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Yes. Constitutional carry. The right to carry a flintlock musket as long as you’re wearing the tricorn hat and knee breeches of your militia unit? > [@sps49sd](#): > > Now you have to define crazy. What criteria will you use to deprive someone of their rights? What criteria do you use when deciding when to deprive someone else of their life? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/252 "2019-08-06T17:38:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s murder and terrorism everywhere, including nations with very strict gun control. > > Gun control doesnt stop those things, or even slow them down. :dubious: > **[Guns are the problem](https://www.vox.com/2019/8/5/20753797/gun-violence-el-paso-dayton-mass-shootings)** > > America doesn’t have a monopoly on hate or mental illness. What it has is a lot of guns. > [@](#): > > Researchers have found that stricter gun laws could help. A 2016 review of 130 studies in 10 countries, published in Epidemiologic Reviews, found that new legal restrictions on owning and purchasing guns tended to be followed by a drop in gun violence — a strong indicator that restricting access to guns can save lives. A review of the US evidence by RAND also linked some gun control measures, including background checks, to reduced injuries and deaths. A growing body of evidence, from Johns Hopkins researchers, also supports laws that require a license to buy and own guns. > > That doesn’t mean that bigots and extremists will never be able to carry out a shooting in places with stricter gun laws. Even the strictest gun laws can’t prevent every shooting. > > Guns are also not the only contributor to violence. Other factors include, for example, poverty, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and the strength of criminal justice systems. > > **But when researchers control for other confounding variables, they have found time and again that America’s loose access to guns is a major reason the US is so much worse in terms of gun violence than its developed peers.** ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/253 "2019-08-06T17:39:41Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This here is for you > > [snip] You can’t engage in a discussion? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/254 "2019-08-06T17:39:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Where did he buy that gun? It was Nevada. In fact I read that when there is gun show near the Nevada California border, the shooting rate in California goes up. > Gun control in California is not the problem - gun control in Nevada is. More specifically, the root of the problem is the lack of nation-wide federal legislation that reflects the true dangers of firearms. Again, every advanced democracy on earth has such legislation, and every advanced democracy on earth has very much lower rates of gun violence. The gun lobby would seem to want us to believe that this is some kind of strange coincidence. > [@sps49sd](#): > > We’re back? > > 538 has a nice interactive graphic: > > [here](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/) > > and the closing statement is “The common element in all these deaths is a gun. But the causes are very different, and that means the solutions must be, too.” It’s completely incomprehensible why anyone would reach or even consider such a bizarre conclusion. If the common element is that all these deaths are the result of guns, yet gun policy is not allowed to be a major part of the solution, it can only be because the unstated assumption is that gun control must be rejected out of hand. The further unstated assumption is that instead of controlling access to guns – the common factor here – a myriad of other solutions must be enacted instead, most of them ridiculous or impossible, such as magically identifying anyone who is, or might be, emotionally disturbed or even just vulnerable to being emotional, or angry, or depressed, or intoxicated. > [@JXJohns](#): > > Do we really have to do this again? No, they didn’t ban ALL guns. Yes they did heavily restrict SOME guns to the point of making them unavailable to the common person. From your link: > Category D > All self-loading centrefire rifles, pump-action or self-loading shotguns that have a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds, semi-automatic rimfire rifles over 10 rounds, are restricted to government agencies, occupational shooters and primary producers This describes a policy where the most dangerous guns are only available to people who genuinely need them, while everyone else still has access to the normal class of unrestricted guns. And this is a problem, why? To most of us, at least to anyone outside the US gun culture, this just sounds like sensible gun policy, one which balances public safety with an individual’s ability to own most normal types of guns, even if it’s just for fun. How on earth could this possibly be described as a “gun ban”? Furthermore, it’s hard to see how anyone other the most ardent gun zealot would consider this an unacceptable balance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/255 "2019-08-06T17:40:44Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Now you have to define crazy. What criteria will you use to deprive someone of their rights? The very same used by doctors and judges after those doctors and judges declare someone as having a mental issue. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/256 "2019-08-06T17:41:53Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … > > But what I see from the pro-gun side is: a whole bunch of **other** people getting killed is an acceptable price to pay for **our** rights. > > When I see pro-gun folks using their superior knowledge of the subject matter that they always flaunt in these debates, to try to find that sweet spot that reduces the carnage by a great deal at minimal reduction to their access to weapons of mass slaughter, I’ll change my mind. But I’ve never seen such an attempt. It’s always your rights trumping other people’s lives… In America, having the right to free expression causes many deaths- bigots and haters are allowed free rein to spread their hate and racism. The media is free to glorify the mass killers (which is the primary cause of mass killing in the USA). But, allowing people to die from the right to free expression and free press is a acceptable price to pay for our rights. Or would you curtail the 1st Ad also? Criminals get off all the time as the police are hampered by the 5th and other amendments. The police must read suspect their right, give them a lawyer, they police cant beat confessions out of them, etc. This causes more deaths.But, allowing people to die from the Bill or Rights is a acceptable price to pay for our rights. Or would you curtail the rest of the Bill of Rights also? But what’s most important is that gun control simply has never worked in the uSA. Gun owners dont think that more of _what never worked_ will _'this time"_ now magically work. So, we \*dont think \*that other people being killed is caused by our right. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/257 "2019-08-06T17:42:54Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Ah yes! There is no way to prevent mass shootings other than repealing the first amendment. Sure. If we’d just stop hearing about them, they wouldn’t be real and we wouldn’t have to find excuses for them. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/258 "2019-08-06T17:43:15Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > When a shooter has to consider the realistic chance that there will be someone to oppose them, they will rethink their plans- and if they armor up, they are much more likely to be spotted and stopped first. Or they just shoot people from a hotel window instead of ground level. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/259 "2019-08-06T17:44:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The right to carry a flintlock musket as long as you’re wearing the tricorn hat and knee breeches of your militia unit? Militia is a reason, not a requirement; and weapons have advanced since the military style flintlock musket. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What criteria do you use when deciding when to deprive someone else of their life? If my life (or others’ in certain circumstances) is under immediate threat by that someone. Why, what are your criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/260 "2019-08-06T17:44:54Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Now you have to define crazy. What criteria will you use to deprive someone of their rights? Why don’t you tell us what you would find acceptable. If you can’t or won’t, then is it fair to assume that you think there isn’t any acceptable criteria, therefore we can’t prevent crazy people from having guns, and we just have to accept that we need to allow crazy people to be armed? Because I keep hearing from right wingers that it is a mental illness issue, but I have not heard a single suggestion from them on how that could be fixed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166.md?page=14)