# So what will it take for there to be serious gun control debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2019, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166 "2019-08-04T09:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/321 "2019-08-06T19:04:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So those are the people that should be allowed to own firearms, right? In addition to everyone else who has the right. But I was trying to answer your false ‘if: then’ question from your post 312. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/322 "2019-08-06T19:07:02Z")
Someone mentioned it upthread, but we have had guns in this country since the first colonists settled in Jamestown. We have had automatic weapons for over 100 years and semi-automatic weapons just like the ones used in mass shootings, for an equivalent period of time. Yet is has only been in the last 20 years where these mass shooting have become an issue. So, if we had the guns before, and didn’t have mass shootings, but today we still have guns but now we have mass shootings, doesn’t it stand to reason that a variable other than guns is the real issue? Isn’t this Problem Solving 101? We look at what has changed as the possible source of the problem; the variable and not the constant. Suppose you have had a hot tub at your house for the last 5 years. Next month your electric bill skyrockets. Your spouse claims that you need to get rid of the hot tub and blames it for causing the high electric bill. Wouldn’t you conclusively know that the hot tub was not what was causing the high electric bills? Likewise, gun ownership is not causing these mass shootings. It is whatever has changed in the last couple of decades. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/323 "2019-08-06T19:07:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “that’s racist!” It is merely a restatement of this: > [@sps49sd](#): > > People who are smaller and/ or less strong that assailants, or those members of a group that has historically been ‘ganged up’ on, have the right to defend themselves with a firearm. Was _that_ racist too? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/324 "2019-08-06T19:08:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Actually – this sounds like it might have a lot of potential. How about this – only women and minorities can purchase or own guns; white men aren’t allowed unless they’re under 5’4" and 135 lbs. Height and weight could be negotiable. Agreed? > > 😉 I’m glad you got the concept, but the idea is that firearms are an equalizer for everyone. Who isn’t a violent criminal. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/325 "2019-08-06T19:13:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “that’s racist!” Right again, **HD**. And it must not be tolerated. That’s why advocating for no guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender or race, is the only just solution. I’ve no doubt you will agree. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/326 "2019-08-06T19:14:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is merely a restatement of this: > Was _that_ racist too? No, it’s not. iiandyiii’s (unserious, I hope) proposal singled out a particular race (and gender - “white men”) for discrimination. sps49sd’s post did not mention any particular race. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/327 "2019-08-06T19:17:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Right again, **HD**. And it must not be tolerated. > > That’s why advocating for no guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender or race, is the only just solution. I’ve no doubt you will agree. Solution to what? I could get on board with something along the lines of “guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender or race” (with perhaps some exceptions around non-protected-class characteristics), but not its opposite. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/328 "2019-08-06T19:18:28Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > I’m glad you got the concept, but the idea is that firearms are an equalizer for everyone. > > Who isn’t a violent criminal. What about elementary school children? Surely you’d advocate for arming them. After all, they are the smallest and weakest among us. Parents, be sure to add “Glock and Ammo” to the school supplies list for Johnny and little Suzy. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/329 "2019-08-06T19:22:25Z")
Maybe they can do Minecraft or Disney’s Frozen themed guns for the kiddos. You know, for safety. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/330 "2019-08-06T19:22:38Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And yet, 30,000 people are killed with bullets every year. > > We seem to be missing an awful lot of people who are a “danger to themselves or others”. > > Maybe this cunning plan doesn’t work? Maybe? 40,000 people are getting killed in car accidents every year, so I guess car safety regulations and laws don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/331 "2019-08-06T19:22:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Right again, **HD**. And it must not be tolerated. > > That’s why advocating for no guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender or race, is the only just solution. I’ve no doubt you will agree. So (just to continue with your own ridiculous line) this means no guns for police, federal agents, secret service and the military, right? I mean ‘no guns for anyone’ (which is a catchy slogan) means what it says, correct? No guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender, race, religion or whether or not they liked Justice League. Not sure what the point of this whole part of the discussion actually is, or what it’s supposed to prove (except how silly it’s become), but what the hell. There IS no middle ground (told by a child holding a sign saying ‘middle ground’ that bends with a cool reflection while talking to Neo)… ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/332 "2019-08-06T19:24:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Solution to what? Why, jet-lag, of course. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I could get on board with something along the lines of “guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender or race” (with perhaps some exceptions around non-protected-class characteristics), but not its opposite. Oh-no. How disappointing. For a second there, I thought you’d come around. Such a shame. Really. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/333 "2019-08-06T19:24:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > There IS no middle ground (told by a child holding a sign saying ‘middle ground’ that bends with a cool reflection while talking to Neo)… The middle ground (and actually the goal of most gun control activists, in my understanding) is to make the US like Australia or Canada when it comes to guns. That’s pretty much impossible, practically speaking, in the near or medium term – too many guns, not nearly enough political will, IMO. Maybe it’s possible in the long term. But it’s not a ridiculous goal – those countries are generally fine and decent places to live, with a comparable quality of life to the US. And tons fewer shootings (and murders in general) per capita. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/334 "2019-08-06T19:26:55Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > 40,000 people are getting killed in car accidents every year, so I guess car safety regulations and laws don’t work. Is that more or less than there were before car safety regulations and laws were enacted? Adjusted for total number of cars on the road of course. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/335 "2019-08-06T19:28:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Teaching my family that those things are wrong, carrying a weapon so that I’ll have at least a chance to defend myself and them if I’m ever caught up in an attack, So, not a thing about anyone else. Similar to climate change, I suppose, so long as you have an umbrella to keep the sun off your own neck, you don’t care that the world bakes. > [@](#): > > urging others to avoid ridiculous hyperbole like your post, etc. I haven’t seen you do any such thing. > [@](#): > > Who here do you think is “try[ing] to have a discussion”? You? It certainly doesn’t come across that way when you say the other side “simply want murder, terrorism, and every other thing they can get away with.” Man, you’re really upset about Bone’s post, aren’t you, still going on about my parody of it? > [@](#): > > You can be as ‘ungenerous’ as you like, you just won’t be taken seriously while doing so. Your ‘ungenerous’ post came across as “ridiculous” & “ludicrous” in the eyes of others. I suppose you’re free to make ridiculous posts or stomp your feet as well, but it doesn’t come across as a sincere attempt to ‘have a discussion’ with the other side. What’s not taken seriously is when we try to have a discussion about preventing injury and death, and you come in just to laugh at us and our inability to do anything to protect our fellow citizens from your toys. At a certain point, parody or not, one does start to question exactly what your motives are. Does seem that you get a great deal of enjoyment out of frustrating people who are trying to save lives. No matter how generous, I cannot think of a benign motive for such acts. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m all for more non-prohibited-person black and brown people owning guns, mostly because I think it’ll effectively tamp down on the dems’ constant mewling for more gun control. No, what would stop “mewling” (do you think that you are being productive or contributory using that sort of insulting language?) is if people would stop shooting each other. Did you have any ideas on that that you would actually like to put forward and support? Or are you just here to feel superior to those who are trying to do something about it? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes. And so is nationwide. I mean, then the excuse will be “well the guns are coming from over the borders”. Actually, that’s Mexico’s excuse. Our guns are coming into their country and killing their people. Similar in other SA countries. No, I don’t know if you 've noticed this, but a difference between a state border and a country border is that we are actually allowed to stop people and search their things coming into a country. Would you be cool with California searching cares coming in from Nevada to confiscate illegal guns? > [@](#): > > Gun control simply doesnt work- it can’t work to reduce mass killings. It could, maybe reduce violent crime a bit. Maybe we could try it, and see. > [@](#): > > Mass killings here in the USA aren’t caused by guns- we have had lots of guns since 1776. They are caused by the media glorifying the killers. Noted sociologists have done many studies (which I have linked to previously) that show it’s the media that is pushing the recent increase in mass shootings. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You’re not entitled to afford a book; you’re just entitled to possess one if you can afford it, no different from any other piece of property. Yes, yes, we all know your hatred of the First Amendment. You don’t have to make every gun debate thread about your wish to abolish 1A, though. > [@sps49sd](#): > > Do nothing? No, penalize criminals, murderers, robbers; all assailants who use firearms in the commission of their crimes. Absolutely nothing in there to prevent criminals, robbers, all assailants from using firearms in commission of their crimes? > [@](#): > > Depriving everyone of their rights because someone else might commit a crime is against what this country should stand for. There are many things that our country should or should not stand for. Allowing our citizens to be slaughtered is one of those things that I don’t think that we should stand for, your mileage obviously varies. > [@Jasmine](#): > > I don’t know but, apparently, whole sale slaughter of innocent men women and children isn’t enough. Of course not, it’s not like they were anybody they knew. Why should they care? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/336 "2019-08-06T19:29:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So (just to continue with your own ridiculous line) this means no guns for police, federal agents, secret service and the military, right? I mean ‘no guns for anyone’ (which is a catchy slogan) means what it says, correct? No guns for anyone, regardless of size, gender, race, religion or whether or not they liked Justice League. Hmmm… I’ll give this some consideration. But lets start with civilians first. Unless you’d like to try it the other way around and see how that goes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/337 "2019-08-06T19:31:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That would be a strong argument. If it had any relationship to reality. > > Here’s the murder rate per 100,000 citizens in several countries: Cherrypicked. Here are _all_ the nations: > **[List of countries by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)** > > The list of countries by UNODC homicide rate is typically expressed in units of deaths per 100,000 individuals per year. A homicide rate of 30 (out of 100,000) corresponds to 0.03% of the population dying by homicide. The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Only UNODC-vetted data is used in the main table below. In some cases, it may not be as up to date as other sources. See further down as to why its data is used over other sources. > Homicide rates may be under-report... Note that the USA falls right in the middle. In General, other than Canada, The America’s have higher rates than western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/338 "2019-08-06T19:31:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Hmmm… I’ll give this some consideration. But lets start with civilians first. Unless you’d like to try it the other way around and see how that goes. I’m good with however you want to do it…with the proviso that you get the support from the citizens to first either modify or vacate completely the 2nd Amendment. You were planning to do that first, right? I’m sure you were. If so, then however you want to do it. Sort of like the Chick-Fil-A ads, No Mor Gunz! can be your motto for all… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/339 "2019-08-06T19:32:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cherrypicked. It’s not really cherypicking to compare the US to other wealthy countries. The US’s murder rate is much, much higher than countries with comparable per-capita wealth and other economic indicators. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/340 "2019-08-06T19:33:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And yet, 30,000 people are killed with bullets every year. > > We seem to be missing an awful lot of people who are a “danger to themselves or others”. > > Maybe this cunning plan doesn’t work? Maybe? Sure, and I am in favor of better mental health screening, especially as most of those deaths are due to suicide. Let do it! But sociologists and psychologists agree that it is very hard to always spot someone who is suicidal [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166.md?page=18)