# So what will it take for there to be serious gun control debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2019, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166 "2019-08-04T09:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/121 "2019-08-06T02:51:58Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > How many violent crimes have used **machine guns** or howitzers? Full automatic weapons [triggered](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/06/united-states-machine-gun-ban/) the National Firearm Act of 1934. > [@](#): > > Consider the situation: Gun crimes are on the rise, and the guns that criminals use are military-style weapons, capable of firing rounds with unprecedented speed and ferocity. Cities—where more people live than ever before—are becoming unsafe. The United States leads other industrialized countries in gun-related deaths. And scores of citizens, including the liberal president, are calling for action. > > But this isn’t 2016. It’s 1934—a year in which the United States faced unprecedented challenges from a new kind of gun and a new kind of criminal, and the country responded with new laws. > > The weapon in question was the tommy gun. Named for its inventor, John T. Thompson, the tommy gun is the kind of short machine gun you see in old-timey mob movies, usually with a cylindrical drum of bullets hanging from the barrel. And the tommy gun really was the weapon of choice for mobsters and bandits, who were a major part of the American consciousness during Prohibition and the Depression. > > “By the late 1920s, through popular culture, through news reports, through movies, you have this rising crime rate where criminals are using weapons like the tommy gun, like the sawed-off shotgun,” says Robert Spitzer, a professor of political science at SUNY Cortland and the author of several books on the history of gun control. > > “A cry arose in the country to regulate these weapons,” he says. > > And that cry sounds a lot like the arguments we hear today. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/122 "2019-08-06T03:04:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > what are you talking about? Your reply makes no sense in context. If a law prevents _some_ of what it is intended to prevent, but not all of that thing, should the law not exist at all? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/123 "2019-08-06T03:06:51Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Full automatic weapons [triggered](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/06/united-states-machine-gun-ban/) the National Firearm Act of 1934. I meant since then… Edit: was that an effective solution or feel-good nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/124 "2019-08-06T03:10:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > what are you talking about? Your reply makes no sense in context. I didn’t think context was required. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/125 "2019-08-06T03:11:00Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > If a law prevents _some_ of what it is intended to prevent, but not all of that thing, should the law not exist at all? Well, Ok, we have laws against murder. They dont prevent all murders. We have laws against using guns illegally. They dont prevent all illegal gun usage. We have gun control laws- but they dont do anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/126 "2019-08-06T03:17:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What incident was that? 😕 There was a big shooting spree in Dayton yesterday. Been in the news a bunch. You may have heard something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/127 "2019-08-06T03:19:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We have gun control laws- but they dont do anything at all. Maybe you missed this from **Barack Obama** , that **asahi** was referencing: > [@](#): > > California has one of the lowest gun death rates in America, they also have some of the strongest gun control. Meanwhile somewhere like Alabama, has some of the highest gun death rates in America, they also have some of the weakest gun control. Any comment? Also, you: > [@](#): > > Of course it didn’t outlaw such things as the AR15, which has quite a few earthly uses and is of a class of weapons which is so rarely used in violent crime it’s barely a footnote, like 2%, iirc. What earthly uses? I’m seriously curious about these. I don’t know what you are referring to. As for the 2%, do you care about the fact the people died? I’m sure you do. So what is your point? ---
**Author:** ![Rayks\_Marcial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@Rayks\_Marcial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayks_Marcial)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/128 "2019-08-06T03:27:36Z")
“Some of the strongest gun control.” So I suppose the state with the strongest gun control would have more shooting deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/129 "2019-08-06T03:34:52Z")
> [@Rayks\_Marcial](#): > > “Some of the strongest gun control.” > > So I suppose the state with the strongest gun control would have more shooting deaths. I’m not sure why that would be the case. Anyway, the point others were trying to make, I think, and I have elsewhere, is that gun controls that are effective in reducing gun deaths can be rendered less effective when neighboring states have weak laws. If indeed California’s laws are reducing deaths, why not implement them country-wide? That is, if one is interested in reducing those deaths in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/130 "2019-08-06T03:39:33Z")
\> Americans are morally and intellectually inferior in many respects to most (all?) of the first world western democratic societies/nations That’s probably the answer. Americans are morally and intellectually inferior to the rest of the developed world, which explains why they want a gun deaths epidemic but don’t want universal healthcare. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > That is, if one is interested in reducing those deaths in the first place. Sadly, those opposing gun control aren’t interested in reducing those deaths. They’d rather have guns. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/131 "2019-08-06T03:49:00Z")
Why do more mass shootings happen in the US, per capita, than most other countries? I don’t know, but here’s a theory. There are a number of reasons why someone might do this. Racial animosity, sociopathy, and others. Maybe it’s because due the large number of people in the country, and the many varied situations we live in, we simply have more opportunities, if that’s the right word, for people to fill each category. For instance, in Japan, there are far few ethnic groups, and 99.4% of the country is Japanese. Thus being motivated by racial hatred is not very likely. This is not a perfect example, because of course Japan has dramatically fewer guns than America. But I hope you get the idea. This idea could be extended to other reasons. Does anyone know of a study addressing this idea? Short of banning most guns, is this something we will just have to learn to live with in America? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/132 "2019-08-06T03:54:57Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Sadly, those opposing gun control aren’t interested in reducing those deaths. They’d rather have guns. Some perhaps, but I’m not ready to generalize. For instance, first a definition of gun control must be determined. If gun control means background checks _only_, as an example, then I am not especially for it for reducing gun deaths, because I don’t think it will have much effect, not because I am not interested in reducing gun deaths. I assure you that I am. That does not mean I’m against the idea altogether. If you have to register a gun, it can be traced back to you if you commit a crime, for instance. This is good. Didn’t prevent a death, but maybe will help find the killer. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/133 "2019-08-06T03:56:53Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > …and if lobbying groups for the gun manufacturers were no longer allowed to bribe elected officials of both parties with campaign contributions. I include pro-gun lobbyists, the NRA, etc. in the category of “opponents of gun control”. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/134 "2019-08-06T04:05:14Z")
Studies show that it’s not ethnic diversity that counts - it’s ethnic dominance. Think about, for example, Africa or South America. Singapore is quite diverse ethnically but has a very low crime rate. Canada is diverse - more diverse than the US, according to some studies - but has a lower crime rate than its southern neighbor. Countries with tougher gun laws have fewer gun deaths. This isn’t a difficult concept. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/135 "2019-08-06T04:33:04Z")
Vehicle registrations, insurance requirements, licensing, database of ownership that can be used to solve crimes - nobody opposes these measures for cars. Why would anyone oppose them for guns? Start a gun buyback program. Won’t take all the guns off the street right away, but over time it will. Introduce an annual gun registration fee for each gun you own. Hefty fines if you don’t pay, and guns may be repossessed if you don’t pay the fees. Even heftier fines - sufficient to put the store out of business - for gun shops / trade shows selling guns without proper registration. Gun owners requires to buy gun owner insurance to own a gun. Big federal and state sales tax on any gun sale - let’s start at 40% of the retail price. Must disclose having a gun in the house for home insurance purposes. Offer insurance discounts for home owners selling their guns and installing a home security system that - last time I checked - had never accidentally killed anyone. Mandatory reeducation courses every 3-5 years. The US has not banned cigarettes, yet the percentage of smokers in the US has been steadily falling, from almost 50% in the 1950s, to the 30s in the late 1980s, and now in the mid-teens and still dropping. It’s harder to smoke. It’s more expensive to smoke. Want to smoke? Great, you’re still going to help foot the bill society has to pay. The US won’t solve the gun problem in my lifetime - but maybe in my kid’s lifetimes… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/136 "2019-08-06T04:45:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There was a big shooting spree in Dayton yesterday. Been in the news a bunch. You may have heard something about it. Yes, but until I search I hadnt heard about Antifa. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/137 "2019-08-06T04:50:20Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Why do more mass shootings happen in the US, per capita, than most other countries? I don’t know, but here’s a theory. There are a number of reasons why someone might do this. Racial animosity, sociopathy, and others. Maybe it’s because due the large number of people in the country, and the many varied situations we live in, we simply have more opportunities, if that’s the right word, for people to fill each category. For instance, in Japan, there are far few ethnic groups, and 99.4% of the country is Japanese. Thus being motivated by racial hatred is not very likely. This is not a perfect example, because of course Japan has dramatically fewer guns than America. But I hope you get the idea. This idea could be extended to other reasons. Does anyone know of a study addressing this idea? Short of banning most guns, is this something we will just have to learn to live with in America? You have no idea. Their are major racial groups in Japan. If you introduced common gun ownership to Japan you would create a war zone the likes of which you have never seen. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/138 "2019-08-06T04:50:56Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Maybe you missed this from **Barack Obama** , that **asahi** was referencing: > > Any comment? > > Also, you: > > What earthly uses? I’m seriously curious about these. I don’t know what you are referring to. As for the 2%, do you care about the fact the people died? I’m sure you do. So what is your point? Indeed, that was my reply. BA’s post gave stats out of context which gave a incorrect conclusion. Actually, overall, the states with the lowest homicides rates also have very little gun control. CA actually has a homicide rate exactly in the middle, not low at all. AR15s are very good for varmint hunting, like coyotes. They are also fun target rifles for tin can shooting and the like. Many like them for home defense. So, you’d want to make a bunch of guns illegal , which could not possibly make a significant reduction in violent crime? Just because they look scary? 2%? Well, that many people die from baseball bats, backyard pools, and bathtub accidents. Should we ban baseball, pools and bathtubs? Tens of thousands more than that die from alcohol or smoking. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/139 "2019-08-06T04:52:47Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > … > Sadly, those opposing gun control aren’t interested in reducing those deaths. They’d rather have guns. Except that banning those guns wont reduce deaths. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/140 "2019-08-06T04:56:43Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > … Sadly, those opposing gun control aren’t interested in reducing those deaths. They’d rather have guns. I, for one, would be interested in hearing about proposed solutions that did not involve variations on the theme “let’s take away everyone’s guns”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166.md?page=8)