# So what's all this about Romney's tax returns being hacked? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 5, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796 "2012-09-05T21:54:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/81 "2012-09-06T17:15:39Z")
Even if this \*is \*all a scam, politicians are learning what kind of bullshit they can’t get away with. Do you think any future presidential candidates are ever going to try to hide their tax returns again? Not going to happen. Maybe it’ll prevent some more unsavory future candidates from running, and I think that’s a good thing. I also secretly love this subversive hacker shit, it’s like crack to me. I hate interpersonal drama, but political drama in an election year caused by electronic shenaniganery? Bring it AWN. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/82 "2012-09-06T17:19:55Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Here’s a thought. > > From the ABC article:As far as I know they haven’t said “Mitt Romney is not a customer” or “no such files are stored at that location”. Plus they say that they are working closely with the Secret Service. > > If they have no such files there, wouldn’t they just say so? If they have no such files why would they be “working closely with the United States Secret Service”? > > If they have no such files there then hey, it’s bullshit, no reason to further involve PWC and focus instead on the web posts and the bogus ram drive deliveries. > > So it seems likely that Romney is a customer and they do have such files at that location (or at least accessible from that location) and that whoever is behind all of this is at the very least aware of the existence and location of those files. > > In fact, if they weren’t aware that those files were accessible at that location then the whole scam makes zero sense since it would be immediately exposed as a hoax. There would be no point in doing it. Remember that Romney did release 2 years of his taxes, and the preparer listed on the bottom of page 2 of the 2011 1040 is clearly listed as PriceWaterhouseCoopers LLP, so the fact that Romney is a client of theirs is public knowledge. From there, it’s not really that much of a stretch to assume that he’s been a client for a while, and if the files were in fact pulled from a network share as the original ransom letter hints, then the physical location where the breach happened isn’t relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/83 "2012-09-06T17:22:05Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > Supposing the $1m in Internet Funbucks is deposited. It’s impossible to remove without being traced, if I’ve understood correctly - but would it need to be, if the act of depositing makes the value of everybody else’s Bitcoins rise? > > It would be like forcing someone to buy 1000 shares of Apple. Share price goes up, lots of people cash in, nobody can tell who orchestrated it. > > Or am I completely on the wrong path here? Actually, I think that is behind this thing. To drive up Bitcoin exchange rate. Here is a chart for the last year: [http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg360ztgMzm1g10zm2g25zv](http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg360ztgMzm1g10zm2g25zv) There are a select few who hold large quantities of bitcoins and a stunt like this could cause them to double in value. If nothing else, it will drive up interest and reporting on them and that will attract more people and that will drive up the exchange rate. > [@Marley23](#): > > They said they had help from someone who was working in the building. They even announced what floor the person supposedly worked on. How long do you think it’ll take the Secret Service to find that guy? Well, if it was an H1-B contractor, they could be back in their home country already. Also, it isn’t hard to social engineer your way into spaces, so they could be referring to some poor employee that they piggy-backed through a door on. If that was the case, the employee probably doesn’t even know that they were the ones that let them in. > [@kunilou](#): > > That was my thinking too. Better to put the actual drives and the codes on eBay You would have to provide ID to setup an eBay account and it is against their TOS to sell illegal products, so eBay would shut them down pretty quick. They need to start intrade trading on this event: “Will the perpetrator(s) be identified before Sep 28 2012?” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/84 "2012-09-06T17:22:18Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Even if this \*is \*all a scam, politicians are learning what kind of bullshit they can’t get away with. Do you think any future presidential candidates are ever going to try to hide their tax returns again? Not going to happen. Maybe it’ll prevent some more unsavory future candidates from running, and I think that’s a good thing. I also secretly love this subversive hacker shit, it’s like crack to me. I hate interpersonal drama, but international drama? Bring it AWN. I see it differently. More likely, this is precedent, and we won’t see candidates’ tax returns again if Romney wins. We’re constantly redefining what’s acceptable from a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/85 "2012-09-06T17:29:24Z")
The word ‘hack’ is shifting. It may eventually mean a trick, especially using something in a way that it wasn’t designed to be used, that solves a problem. Right now, the phrase ‘life hack’ is used for that meaning, but I could see the life part dropping off. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/86 "2012-09-06T17:29:36Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > If they have no such files there, wouldn’t they just say so? If they have no such files why would they be “working closely with the United States Secret Service”? Because they are a financial services firm, they HAVE to work with Secret Service ANY time that there is a suspicion that their systems have been compromised. So this isn’t a “Romney” specific thing, this is a basic response to the claim of unauthorized access. From the article quote: > [@](#): > > at this time there is no evidence that our systems have been compromised or that there was any unauthorized access to the data in question, Translation – our audit data sucks, so you can’t prove they stole any data. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/87 "2012-09-06T17:31:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Remember that Romney did release 2 years of his taxes, and the preparer listed on the bottom of page 2 of the 2011 1040 is clearly listed as PriceWaterhouseCoopers LLP, so the fact that Romney is a client of theirs is public knowledge. If they prepared his 2011 taxes, they also could have needed copies of his prior returns in order do his taxes. That would explain the two different formats. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/88 "2012-09-06T17:42:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Remember that Romney did release 2 years of his taxes, and the preparer listed on the bottom of page 2 of the 2011 1040 is clearly listed as PriceWaterhouseCoopers LLP, so the fact that Romney is a client of theirs is public knowledge. > > From there, it’s not really that much of a stretch to assume that he’s been a client for a while, and if the files were in fact pulled from a network share as the original ransom letter hints, then the physical location where the breach happened isn’t relevant. If they were in fact pulled from a network share then this thing is real. If they weren’t then how did the parties involved know that they were accessible from that particular office? Presumably they are, otherwise PWC and the Secret Service would know this is a scam. I suppose the whole thing could be a lucky guess but I notice that no one is questioning the details about how they got into the office, so the perpetrators seem to have some knowledge of the layout of the building. If I were planning a hoax like this I’d avoid details that could potentially be proven wrong. I’d simply claim to have hacked into their computers remotely, or that I had broken into a PWC office without saying which one, in what part of the country, or how I did it. There’s a lot of detail in the story that no one so far is denying. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/89 "2012-09-06T18:07:48Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I suppose the flash drive in the package could be blank. Or, for that matter, they could contain viruses or Trojan horses, so the people who sent them would then have access to major news media or even Secret Service computers. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/90 "2012-09-06T18:15:29Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Or, for that matter, they could contain viruses or Trojan horses, so the people who sent them would then have access to major news media or even Secret Service computers. That could easily be a motive, but I’m pretty sure the Secret Service is very careful about such things. They probably have computers that are just for that purpose and have no network connections and can easily be reformatted if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/91 "2012-09-06T18:39:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Social engineering, sure, and lockpicking and related activities, likely, but hacking, no. Didn’t hacking as a philosophical position originate from social engineering and brute force, rather than sophisticated coding? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/92 "2012-09-06T18:54:59Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > The word ‘hack’ is shifting. It may eventually mean a trick, especially using something in a way that it wasn’t designed to be used, that solves a problem. Right now, the phrase ‘life hack’ is used for that meaning, but I could see the life part dropping off. That’s actually the [original usage](http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_23.html#SEC30). The idea of hacking as malicious gaining of access wasn’t a primary usage until the popular press got a hold of it. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/93 "2012-09-06T21:37:40Z")
The source of the identifying phrases has been… identified: _However, all these considerations did not deter me from the path of duty; the moment I understood the will of my Heavenly Father, I felt a determination to go at all hazards, believing that he would support me by his almighty power, and endow me with every qualification that I needed; and although my family was dear to me, and I should have to leave them almost destitute, I felt that the cause of truth, the Gospel of Christ, outweighed every other consideration._ – the journals of Heber C. Kimball, who led the first overseas Mormon mission in 1837 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/94 "2012-09-06T21:41:27Z")
The Heavenly Father thing was kind of a giveaway that it was from some Mormon text. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/95 "2012-09-06T21:51:15Z")
I propse that the SDMB take up a collection to make an alternative bid. I suggest we offer them tree-fiddy to mow Unca **Cecil** ’s lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/96 "2012-09-07T03:36:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They said they had help from someone who was working in the building. They even announced what floor the person supposedly worked on. How long do you think it’ll take the Secret Service to find that guy? But I was running the hoax scenario. If the files are forgeries, they never set foot at PWC. **SteveNC** : Forensic accounting involves internal consistency checks. There might even be publicly available claims that could be verified or at least ones that will play on Fox News. The bar at that network is pretty low after all. There are also some less well known tricks which I’m uncomfortable discussing here, though I learned of them from a general publication on the internet. Nothing is 100% of course: I’m just thinking that forging the figures on a tax return with only hazy knowledge of the target would be challenging. What are the odds that the perps are CPAs with multiple years of experience handling hedge fund accounts? I wouldn’t say zero, but I was sketching a scenario with components that were most probable individually. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/97 "2012-09-07T03:55:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, also: Why is this being reported as a “hack”? So far as I can tell from the original messages, there was no computer hacking involved: They physically sneaked into a building, then physically gained access to hardcopies of the returns (they say that they weren’t in a convenient electronic form), then scanned and saved them onto hardware to which they had legitimate access. Social engineering, sure, and lockpicking and related activities, likely, but hacking, no. Because hacking, in the hacker subculture, doesn’t necessarily involve computers. [To quote the Jargon File](http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html) > [@](#): > > Hacking might be characterized as ‘an appropriate application of ingenuity’. Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully crafted work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. > > An important secondary meaning of hack is ‘a creative practical joke’. Mind you, without knowing the details it’s hard to tell if this really meets the criteria of creative or ingenuity, but from a certain point of view, it could be considered a hack. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/98 "2012-09-07T04:04:21Z")
Ok, here’s part of the ransom note courtesy of the Examiner: PWC Office @ 830 Crescent Centre Drive, Suite 260, Franklin, TN 37067 ``` Telephone: [1] (615) 503-2860 Romney's 1040 tax returns were taken from the PWC office 8/25/2012 by gaining access to the third floor via a gentleman working on the 3rd floor of the building. Once on the 3rd floor, the team moved down the stairs to the 2nd floor and setup shop in an empty office room. During the night, suite 260 was entered, and all available 1040 tax forms for Romney were copied. A package was sent to the PWC on suite 260 with a flash drive containing a copy of the 1040 files, plus copies were sent to the Democratic office in the county and copies were sent to the GOP office in the county at the beginning of the week also containing flash drives with copies of Romney's tax returns before 2010. A scanned signature image for Mitt Romney from the 1040 forms were scanned and included with the packages, taken from earlier 1040 tax forms gathered and stored on the flash drives. The group will release all available files to the public on the 28 of September, 2012 ``` > **[Examiner is back - Examiner.com](https://examiner.com)** > > Examiner.com is the go-to source for millions of people who want to know what's happening in their city. And we're still growing! Ok, it’s probably not the Yes-men, as the initial thumb drives didn’t go to the media. Which is disappointing, really. I guess we can rule out Joey Scaggs as well. The English is a little odd, a little broken, but it doesn’t sound foreign to me either. I’d be surprised if this emanated from Nigeria. Check out the [1] in front of the area code though - that international dialing code indicates either a non-US citizen or a red herring. I’m wondering whether the layout described fits with the PWC floorplan. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/99 "2012-09-07T04:05:46Z")
Well, hell. Ninja’d by \*\*Finagle \*\*hours ago because I didn’t read the whole thread. At least I linked to the original Jargon File site! ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796/100 "2012-09-07T10:34:25Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, it’s probably not the Yes-men, as the initial thumb drives didn’t go to the media. Which is disappointing, really. This doesn’t fit the Yes-men style. I’m guessing there are at lease a couple real Secret Service investigators working on this. I don’t think Yes-men have ever tied up law enforcement beyond a simple trespass complaint by a cranky victim organization. This is also a directly inflicted black-eye on PWC’s failed security. Yes-men would get PWC to punch themselves in the eye in a way that PWC would have no one to blame but themselves. This is closer to Anonymous’ style, except that they’ve never demanded funds that I know of. It could be a wikileaks supporter gone rogue? Or a holder of bitcoins looking to cash out? Or the Romney camp gone insanely desperate to turn the tax debate into Romney’s favor? The only thing I rule out is anyone associated to Obama. If that were the case, the flash drives would have been un-encrypted and delivered to about 100 news papers and bloggers free of charge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-all-this-about-romneys-tax-returns-being-hacked/633796.md?page=6)