# So what's D&D like these days? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 25, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403 "2004-08-25T04:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/181 "2004-09-03T17:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Doesn’t matter. No system that he, or anyone else, will ever come up with could approach the grandeur and majesty of the HERO System. He’s right. Nobody can possibly beat the Hero system. The rest of us can do only a meek and mild imitation of it. I have to admit I like the Irnclaw system on gernal principle. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/182 "2004-09-03T18:01:58Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Doesn’t matter. No system that he, or anyone else, will ever come up with could approach the grandeur and majesty of the **HERO System**. That’s very true. HERO is a wonderful system. The first time I played it I fell in love with the simplicity with which it dealt with initiative and knockback. I think that, if I had my pick as to three RPGs to endure the ages, it’d be d20, HERO, and TORG. d20 for streamlined, quick class/level action. TORG for pretty quick and streamlined point-buy, and cinematic action. And HERO for detailed point-buy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/183 "2004-09-03T18:54:10Z")
> [@Hamish](#): > > (To my knowledge, canon _Dungeons and Dragons_ rulebooks has only twice mentioned queer characters, both in passing. Once was in _Van Richten’s Guide to Vampires_ – first edition, I believe? – where it mentions a paedophile vampire to show that vampires can swing the other way. The other is in _The Book of Exalted Deeds_, where it mentions that the Queen of the Eladrin has a consort of both sexes. Never found another mention, though, in any book) I got a couple more. In the original boxed set for Forgotten Realms, Elminster’s scribe Lhaeo was described as “a lisping man-lover.” Although he was really a noble (and presumably hetero) prince in disguise. An old issue of Polyhedron introduced a pair of NPCs: one had been a human, male fighter who had been killed and reincarnated as a female ogre, who then fell in love with a male human wizard. Which is close enough to transgendered for my book. Along the same lines, the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity doesn’t necessarily have to be considered a cursed item, per se. In the _Faiths and Pantheons_ book for FR 3rd ed, it is mentioned in passing that the goddess Lliira took one of her high priestesses as a lover during the times of trouble. I can’t remember which issue it was, but in the last couple of years, Dragon magazine ran an article about a theives guild, in either Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, I forget which. In the article, the current guildmaster attained the position after killing the previous guildmaster in revenge over the death of his male lover. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/184 "2004-09-03T19:01:35Z")
Incidentally, the Dragon magazine article is easily the most sympathetic depiction of a homosexual character I’ve seen in a D&D product. They go into some detail about the relationship, and the gay character, while not particularly heroic (he’s a thief, after all), is generally favorably presented. I’ll try to dig up the issue this weekend and post a few more details. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/185 "2004-09-03T19:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Along the same lines, the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity doesn’t necessarily have to be considered a cursed item, per se. Now there’s an ambiguity I’ve wondered about. The DMG says that a Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity will reverse the wearer’s sex, but not his/her orientation… But what does it mean by orientation? Does that mean that a heterosexual male would turn into a heterosexual female, or does it mean that a male who’s attracted to females would turn into a female who’s attracted to females? I could see either interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/186 "2004-09-03T19:32:40Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > I’m actually quite surprised you’ve been so bothered by my opinions. Truth be told, I count several current D20 publishers either among my friends or among my cordial online acquaintances; when you talk about how crappy most D20 companies are, you’re insulting people I know and respect. As I suspected, you’re also blustering: when I confront you with evidence of a system that exists in an area you claimed there was a vacuum, you not only dismiss it, but you dismissed it without having any idea what the system is. You acted like _BOEMII_ is an unsatisfactory solution, but I bet you can’t even tell me what character class finds its magic needs met by the alternate system in that book. An honest, humble, respectful designer would have said, as soon as I asked him about that book, “Actually, I’m unfamiliar with it; I’ll try to take a look at it and get back to you with my impressions.” How do I know this? Because I hang out online with honest, humble, respectful designers, and that’s the kind of thing they say when you present them with options they’re not familiar with. Ritual system? Great, fantastic, and wonderful; don’t be surprised if the ritual system invented by Necromancer Games beats the pants off yours, assuming that you’ve not troubled yourself to familiarize yourself with it. Designers who know the field intimately are the ones I trust to improve the field. Designers who fling insults around indiscriminately and without knowledge of the field are not ones I put a great deal of stock by. That said, I do think there’s room to improve D&D’s “trading blows” combat system. I think that adding feats is the absolute wrong way to do it, though. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/187 "2004-09-03T23:29:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Incidentally, the Dragon magazine article is easily the most sympathetic depiction of a homosexual character I’ve seen in a D&D product. They go into some detail about the relationship, and the gay character, while not particularly heroic (he’s a thief, after all), is generally favorably presented. I’ll try to dig up the issue this weekend and post a few more details. Wow. Thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/188 "2004-09-04T00:25:28Z")
Found it: Dragon Magazine issue 301, pg 88: Greyhawk’s Beggar’s Union. Beggarmaster Gaspar is a Neutral human, 3rd lvl Rogue, 8th lvl fighter. Oh, and upon re-reading it, it turns out that after taking over the guild, he bought a True Ressurection for his murdered lover, nicely edging around the sterotype that gay relationships always end up with one or both of the people involved pushing up the daisies. If I remember correctly, they mentioned the article in the letters column of a following issue… ah, here it is, in . Someone wrote in thanking them for including a few gay characters in the magazine. Matthew Sernett, the associate editor, responded: > [@Dragon Magazine](#): > > I must admit, I felt a little trepid about the gay relationship alluded to in that issue’s Living Greyhawk section. It didn’t bother me that a homosexual character would be presented, and to the rest of the staff’s credit, it wasn’t even an “issue” that needed to be discussed. But it worried my that the first allusion to a gay relationship in Dragon would occur between two characters who might be considered villains. Too often in literature and visual media, homosexual people have been vilified or reduced to caricatures, and I didn’t want Dragon to contribute to that ugly history. I considerd how the character was presented, and then I thought of it this way: Would it bother me if Dragon published the same article but alluding to the character’s heterosexual love? With that psychological hiccup out of the way, I was proud to see Dragon take this small step towards equality. The real kudos should go to Erik Mona, editor of Polyhedron and author of the article, for having the chutzpah to write it that way in the first place. I really like my hobby, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/189 "2004-09-04T03:34:38Z")
Awesome, **Miller**! If I may add, Erik Mona is a total class act; I’d love to sit in on a game with him sometime. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/190 "2004-09-04T04:46:23Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Well, since I’ve started writing for Fantasy Productions, I’ve discovered just how touchy companies can be on this. They really don’t want to offend any of the target audience, given how (relatively) small their audience is. I had material cut because a guy dropped his pants after being called a woman. It doesn’t help that the consumers have wildy ranging ages, what’s funny for a 12 year old isn’t for a 35 year old. Huh. I figured the RPG audience was so freakin’ fragmented that aside from White Wolf and WotC, everyone just made their niiche products and left it and damned if they sold more than 20 copies. Is there a sustainable market for “queer-themed” RPGs (apparently, anything that mentions homosexuals in other than demeaning terms, or dares to treat them as anything other than pedophile vampires?)? (that is, can the book turn even the slightest of profits?) If so (and you’re a reliable author), I can hook you up with someone who would definitely be interested. Not that one would expect someone to see a RPG reenactment from QUO VADIS (or was it I, CLAUDIUS?), but you know. If there’s a definite market with anything in that vein, I think there’s a good opportunity. Agreed about the 12 vs. 35 year-olds, but I’m constantly surprised at how often the two are similar! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/191 "2004-09-04T14:00:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Because I hang out online with honest, humble, respectful designers, and that’s the kind of thing they say when you present them with options they’re not familiar with. As you wish: I am a totally worthless human being and my opinions are not even worthy of being seen by such mighty, awesome, great, perfect, humble people as your anonymous friends. You can ignore me from now on, my Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/192 "2004-09-04T14:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, I do think I can do better, and yes, I am in the process of publishing a couiple of things to correct this. The first open up many more multiclassing options for people so its not quite as arche-type restrictive… The second is a more comprehensive system: think Champions in d20. > > I agree with the basic rules. I don’t like the way WotC and most 3rd party companies are developing the system into campaign-specific material. Now, I’ll tell you straight off I’m a bastard, but I’m not an evil man and I know I’m not flawless. Now, I believe I stated that I think the majority of the d20 work published by WotC or not is not really pleasing to me. Bringing up counter-examples does not disprove my opinion, because my opinion was not based on 100% application across the field. > [@](#): > > So, anyone seen what company smiling bandit works for, yet? I’d really like to know what company is producing stuff that’s totally superior to everyone else. _slap_ [Captain \*Jack Sparrow] I don’t think I deserved that. [Captain \*Jack Sparrow] > [@](#): > > you’re trashing the market for not having ideas that the market already has. That doesn’t give me lots of confidence. But hey, if and when I see your product, I’ll judge it on its merits. No, I’m trashing the market for doing nothign more than recycled systems that suck. Recycled systems that are good = good, new systems that are good = good. Suck = suck no matter whether its original suck or not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/193 "2004-09-04T20:17:32Z")
**smiling bandit** , I think the reason you’re getting this sort of reaction is that most of us have seen a lot of people with no professional experience with writing gaming products make pretty much exactly the same claims you’re making, and without exception, the end product is poorly written, wildly unbalanced, and riddled with loop holes and rules oversights. I’m not saying your system is going to be like that: it could very well be everything you think it will be. It’s just that, if you don’t have anything you’ve previously done that you can point at and say, “That was mine, that shows that I know what I’m talking about,” it’s kinda hard to take you seriously. Imagine if you knew a guy who had just bought his first video camera, and was running around telling everyone how he was making a movie that would show up Spielberg for the hack he really is. I don’t mean that as any sort of a slam, and I hope it doesn’t come across that way. It might help if you explained some specific mechanics that your system will include that would be an improvement over d20, but I totally understand if you’re leery about divulging information that you intend to publish and sell. Anyway, again: best of luck with your book, and I sincerely hope that it’s as good as you say it will be. You can never have too many really good RPG systems. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/194 "2004-09-06T01:40:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > **smiling bandit** , I think the reason you’re getting this sort of reaction is that most of us have seen a lot of people with no professional experience with writing gaming products make pretty much exactly the same claims you’re making, and without exception, the end product is poorly written, wildly unbalanced, and riddled with loop holes and rules oversights. Bingo. The day I’m published is the day I get to make grandiose claims about the improvements I can make to the stuff out there right now. Until then, it’d be the height of arrogance for me to make such claims. The height of cliched arrogance. Humility is a virtue, **smiling bandit**. Learn it. Love it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/195 "2004-09-06T14:36:58Z")
I don’t believe I ever claimed I _wasn’t_ an arrogant bastard. I just claim I’m a _skilled_ arrogant bastard. My compatriots agree thus far. My better talents lie (IMNSOABO\*) in (a) created solid groundwork systems and (b) arranging campaign specific material such that it is consistent and takes it magical/scientific laws seriously, which, I’m afraid is rather rare. IMNSOABO = In my not-so-humble arrogant bastard opinion. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/196 "2004-09-06T20:51:27Z")
Well, given that we’ve nearly killed this otherwise lovable thread off, I have to say that the state of DnD PC gaming has never been more erratic. Along with the excrable Pools of radiance (which arguably wasn’t even D20 let alone DnD) and oddities like Temple of Elemental Evil (I swear I’m going to play that game again but darn it, its so bloody annoying when its not being deliciously good). There’s an DnD MMORPG coming out, which in concept at least will be a pretty solid contender. Among the more unusual settings around is the oddball Dragonstar setting, which lies somewhere between Star Wars and Forgotten realms. They have some really neat parts (I admit it, I loved the golem-people right off), though I think the setting was a wee bit implausible on the political level. Its a bit of a takeoff on the old Spelljammer setting. WotC They haven’t released any mid-eastern flavored games, which is too bad as the old Al-Qadim was pretty cool. I despise what they did by cramming L5R into d20 (it had a wonderful system and d20 just doesn’t have enough of the flavor that L5R great) and thus far have ignored Kara-Tur, which irritates me, because I’d really like to see the old material at least reprinted. Its not easy to get and wouldn’t be in good shape even if I did. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/197 "2004-09-08T20:26:27Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > Well, I’m glad that the queer community was represented by such outstanding examples of vampiredom. If Hamish is speaking of the Vamp I think he’s speaking of (Baron Metus), I never thought of him as a pedophile. He did take a young male “bride” against his will. But the bride was 14, which isn’t all that young for the time period that Ravenloft is supposed to reflect. Not a very positive role model, true, but there are lots of evil straight folks in Ravenloft too. (It was 2nd edition, by the way). There’s also Hazlik, the Red Wizard, who has been a character in the setting for over ten years who recently was outted in the 3rd edition Ravenloft Gazetteer I. another evil guy, but his gayness is unrelated to his evil. (He was, however tattooed with “feminine” tattoos by his former superiors for it.) There were plans for Arthur Sedgewick and Alanik Ray to be revealed as gay in Gazetteer III, to balance things out with some good NPC’s. But it was cut by the editors. Now there’s just subtext. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/198 "2004-09-09T15:25:01Z")
Well, one of the problems is that homosexuality (greek epics aside) doesn’t show up much in the source material of DnD. Not that I have a problem with that. I will never be able to think of Llaeo in the same way again, without getting lurid and hirrifying images of him and ol Elmy… Gaaaaaah!!! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/199 "2004-09-09T15:27:29Z")
Well, one of the problems is that homosexuality (greek epics aside) doesn’t show up much in the source material of DnD. Not that I have a problem with that. I will never be able to think of Llaeo in the same way again, without getting lurid and horrifying images of him and ol Elmy… Gaaaaaah!!! ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/200 "2004-09-09T19:38:20Z")
I’m not very widely read in RPGs, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen any reference to sexuality, other than changing of sex, but in my campaigns we’ve had people take lovers (my human female cleric has a DM ruled ability to heal from a distance through a tattoo placed on the healee’s skin. Our male gnome bard/sorcerer saw this as a sign of my love, and anytime I heal anyone else, he gets insanely jealous) and had those characters change sex (I love randomly rolled drawbacks on weapons) but keep their lovers, effectively making them homosexual. That was more complicated than needed, I think. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403.md?page=9)