# So what's D&D like these days? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 25, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403 "2004-08-25T04:40:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/161 "2004-09-02T20:43:34Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Yeah, it seems like hit points are pretty much standard these days–in fact, I can’t think of any alternatives. > > I stopped by the local Barnes & Noble and read through the first three chapters of the 3.5 PHB. It definitely seems a lot simpler and more flexible than 2e. There are plenty of RPGs that don’t use hit points. White Wolf games like Vampire and Werewolf, Deadlands, Savage Worlds, West End Games d6 System, and Blue Planet are just the few I can think of off the top of my head that don’t use hit points. There is one advantage to leaving the ability scores the same. Poison and diseases have the potential to do temporary or permanent damage to your ability scores. So you might take a point or two of Constitution or Strength damage from some contact poison. It’s easier having the full blown stat then just a bonus. At least I think it is. I think the biggest reason they left things like hit points and classes was not to alienate the D&D crowd. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/162 "2004-09-02T21:23:03Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > There are plenty of RPGs that don’t use hit points. White Wolf games like Vampire and Werewolf, Deadlands, Savage Worlds, West End Games d6 System, and Blue Planet are just the few I can think of off the top of my head that don’t use hit points. There’s also the vitality points/wound points system used by Star Wars (at least in one edition of it) and Spycraft. Although it has problems (most notably, it’s way too difficult to kill first-level mooks), it overall works a lot better in a world without magical healing. **smiling bandit** , if you’re familiar with all the systems I described, then I’m even less impressed: what are you doing asking for examples of D20 systems that don’t use spell levels if you know of several such systems? And what, pray tell, was your problem with the system delineated in BOEMII? No shame in admitting you’re not familiar with them, but it’s weird to go back and forth like that. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/163 "2004-09-03T00:37:34Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > But as I said, its obvious you’re not going to convince me to suddenly love all these crappy products. And I’m not going to convinve you they’re crap. That’s fine by me (well no it isn’t, don’t you know you have to LOVE ME!!!), I’m betting I can find enough people who find my stuff sufficiently distinctive that they’ll buy it. And I am an arrogant bastard, but since I’m not leaking a sentence out of my stuff beopre I publish it, you’ll have to savagely rip me to pieces then. “I’m brilliant! I’m brilliant! Everyone else is nowhere near as good as I am!” _Prove it_. “I’m not gonna prove it because you’ll be mean. But everyone else will appreciate how brilliant I am! Just you wait and see!” I know **I’m** impressed. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/164 "2004-09-03T00:54:43Z")
I’d personally be more impressed with **smiling bandit** ’s proposed revolutionary system if he’d be a little more specific. What, exactly, is it that d20’s combat system doesn’t allow you to do? How does his do it better? What’s wrong, specifically, with magic as presented in the core D&D rulebooks, and how will he fix them? Are his books going to be as poorly written as his posts? You know, that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/165 "2004-09-03T01:00:08Z")
> [@your's truly](#): > > Are his books going to be as poorly written as his posts? I’m sorry, that was a cheap shot, and I retract it. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/166 "2004-09-03T02:14:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m sorry, that was a cheap shot, and I retract it. Hey, that was pretty classy! I suppose there’s a D&D joke in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/167 "2004-09-03T03:43:02Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > I suppose there’s a D&D joke in there somewhere. Ok. Under 3.5, is retracting your shot a full action, a standard action or a free one? ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/168 "2004-09-03T04:40:58Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Ok. > > Under 3.5, is retracting your shot a full action, a standard action or a free one? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/169 "2004-09-03T07:49:43Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > Huh? Ok, so it’s not a _good_ D&D joke. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/170 "2004-09-03T08:27:22Z")
Well, normally retracting your shot is a full action, but if you take the feat Quick Shot Retractor (requires Int 13+) you can retract your shot as a standard action. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/171 "2004-09-03T13:03:31Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Ok. > > Under 3.5, is retracting your shot a full action, a standard action or a free one? I dunno, but unless you have Improved Retraction, it provokes an attack of opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/172 "2004-09-03T13:17:49Z")
Hmmm. **On ridiculous character race/class combinations** I started a thread on this here once. I proposed a Shocker Lizard Paladin with the Oozemaster prestige class until someone pointed out to me that Shocker Lizards advance by race, not class. No reason I couldn’t do the necessary modifications by hand, of course. And besides, a _reincarnated_, 1.5-inch-tall Grig paladin who’s slowly turning into a living puddle of acid under the influence of the Oozemaster prestige class is still fully within the rules. He even gets to keep his paladin powers 😃 Of course, these kinds of characters are fun for about five minutes, and when they’re introduced, should only be done as NPCs for occasional comic relief. I’m getting good mileage out of an NPC halfling Paladin named Sir Perrin on his all-white Alaskan malamute Balthazar, however. **On the flexibility of the rules** They’re exceptionally flexible, as they always have been. TSR, and now Wizards of the Coast, have always had notoriously small budgets for police forces to ensure that the rules are being followed. We had house rules in 1st, now 2nd, and now 3rd, and never been arrested. The difference is that 3rd requires the fewest number of modifications to get what I want. I’ve had to tweak a few things (like constantly altering the phrase “opposite sex” in rulebooks – doesn’t fly when the DM and half the players are queer – and I’ve changed a couple of cross-class skills to class skills when it made logical sense). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/173 "2004-09-03T13:39:22Z")
> [@Hamish](#): > > I’ve had to tweak a few things (like constantly altering the phrase “opposite sex” in rulebooks Interesting: does WOTC make this mistake? I’ve seen it, I think, in _Relics & Rituals_, but I thought WOTC was pretty good about this kind of thing. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/174 "2004-09-03T14:22:03Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Interesting: does WOTC make this mistake? I’ve seen it, I think, in _Relics & Rituals_, but I thought WOTC was pretty good about this kind of thing. You know, you’re right. I was refering to non-canon stuff and some updated first-edition stuff, but just assumed that WOTC did the same thing. I did check up a few things like the “Potion of Love,” and so on, and it does seem they were careful. I still don’t think they’d dare give powers like the nymph’s “Blinding Beauty” to a male creature 😉 (To my knowledge, canon _Dungeons and Dragons_ rulebooks has only twice mentioned queer characters, both in passing. Once was in _Van Richten’s Guide to Vampires_ – first edition, I believe? – where it mentions a paedophile vampire to show that vampires can swing the other way. The other is in _The Book of Exalted Deeds_, where it mentions that the Queen of the Eladrin has a consort of both sexes. Never found another mention, though, in any book) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/175 "2004-09-03T14:33:35Z")
> [@Hamish](#): > > (To my knowledge, canon _Dungeons and Dragons_ rulebooks has only twice mentioned queer characters, both in passing. Once was in _Van Richten’s Guide to Vampires_ – first edition, I believe? – where it mentions a paedophile vampire to show that vampires can swing the other way. The other is in _The Book of Exalted Deeds_, where it mentions that the Queen of the Eladrin has a consort of both sexes. Never found another mention, though, in any book) Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 3rd Edition. One of the rulers of a city - somewhere in the south, near the Serpent Kingdoms if I recall correctly… Chessenta? is a female, with a female consort. It was strongly believed by the Realms populace in general that Elminster’s scribe Lhaeo was gay, and a ‘longtime companion’ of the Old Mage, but it was a sham. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/176 "2004-09-03T14:44:14Z")
> [@Hamish](#): > > (To my knowledge, canon _Dungeons and Dragons_ rulebooks has only twice mentioned queer characters, both in passing. Once was in _Van Richten’s Guide to Vampires_ – first edition, I believe? – where it mentions a paedophile vampire to show that vampires can swing the other way. The other is in _The Book of Exalted Deeds_, where it mentions that the Queen of the Eladrin has a consort of both sexes. Never found another mention, though, in any book) Well, I’m glad that the queer community was represented by such outstanding examples of vampiredom. I’m surprised that there aren’t more lesbian mentions though, considering the target audience. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/177 "2004-09-03T14:48:39Z")
To be fair, it’s not super-common for an NPC’s sexuality to come up at all in D&D material. I don’t recall ever reading any reference to Mialee’s sexual preferences, and while Regdar is famous for his love of ale and whores, there’s no indication whether those are boywhores or girlwhores. That said, I’m not a big fan of published campaign materials, inasmuch as I prefer to make those up myself; it’s entirely possible that Forgotten Realms or Eberron talks a lot about marriages and romances across gender but very rarely within. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/178 "2004-09-03T15:50:33Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > Well, I’m glad that the queer community was represented by such outstanding examples of vampiredom. > > I’m surprised that there aren’t more lesbian mentions though, considering the target audience. Well, since I’ve started writing for Fantasy Productions, I’ve discovered just how touchy companies can be on this. They really don’t want to offend any of the target audience, given how (relatively) small their audience is. I had material cut because a guy dropped his pants after being called a woman. It doesn’t help that the consumers have wildy ranging ages, what’s funny for a 12 year old isn’t for a 35 year old. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/179 "2004-09-03T17:36:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’d personally be more impressed with **smiling bandit** ’s proposed revolutionary system if he’d be a little more specific. Doesn’t matter. No system that he, or anyone else, will ever come up with could approach the grandeur and majesty of the **HERO System**. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403/180 "2004-09-03T17:49:56Z")
> [@](#): > > “I’m brilliant! I’m brilliant! Everyone else is nowhere near as good as I am!” > [@](#): > > I’d personally be more impressed with smiling bandit’s proposed revolutionary system if he’d be a little more specific. Strawman. I do not claim to be exceptionally brilliant or exceptionally revolutionary. In fact, the systems I crete are generally adapted in whole or in part from other game systems. I do claim to have better ability than most d20 publishers, which I am entitled to believe as it is my opinion. > [@](#): > > what are you doing asking for examples of D20 systems that don’t use spell levels if you know of several such systems? I am unsatisfied with them as is. I suppose I could go through and list every possible system that has been made, but (a) how many of them are intended for everday campaign use and (b) how many of them get used very often in practice? You know how many I’ve seen outside my main group? Exactly zero. And thats from observing around 60 different groups playing DnD3 or d20. > [@](#): > > And what, pray tell, was your problem with the system delineated in BOEMII? I don’t remember the specifics of that. I don’t own the book myself. I read it from a friend’s collection. I actually rather like Monte Cook’s material, though. Sometimes he falls into the same page-padding trap that WotC wallows in, though. Then again, who doesn’t from time to time? I can’t fairly claim I never put anything in to The page-padding trap is simple: WotC products essentially seem to be primarily composed of PrC’s these days. Which, IMHo, is a pretty big problem. I refuse to collect any of their major non-campaign expansion books stuff (I love FR though). And that’s simply not efficient. Wouldn’t it be better to give players a mathematical model to build characters instead, along with sample characters adapted to specific campaigns? > [@](#): > > What, exactly, is it that d20’s combat system doesn’t allow you to do? How does his do it better? Who said I was rewriting the book from the ground up? I’m adding modular components like anyone else. Its so plainly obvious to me that these kinds of options should have been in place that I don’t quite comprehend why I’ve never seen anyone else do it. > [@](#): > > What’s wrong, specifically, with magic as presented in the core D&D rulebooks, and how will he fix them? Advanced, flexible magic. We’ve got about 6 differnt spellcasting systems, each with their advantages and disadvantages, and all of which are more flexible. Not necesarrily more poweful mind you, but more flexible. We did keep the separation of spells into certain levels 1-9+, partly because its simply easy for people to wrap their brains around and because we needed some mathematical construct to divvy spell power up. The other thing I dislike is that (with the exception of Call of Cthulhu, its true) every product I’ve seen so far is really pretty limited in magic _unless_ the GM throws the rulebook out the window. I don’t like that. If the DM can suddenly pull vast magical catastrophe’s out, then why do the PC’s never suffer from them. Likewise, if the DM’s vastly powerful wizard can do a major ritual, why can’t the PC’s? Having a few loose rules is fine and great - I expect them. But it shouldn’t be something that screws players or DM’s all the time, and that I do see a lot of. I’ve seen a couple of ritual magic systems, but they were prety clunky and felt tacked-on. So I’ve made one that’s simple, specialized, and lets enemies and PC’s use exactly the same mechanic. It also provides a quick answer to all those questions about how the “mighty ancients did super-magic X”. Answer: they took a decade off and just did it! > [@](#): > > The difference is that 3rd requires the fewest number of modifications to get what I want. I can agree with that. If it didn’t, I wouldn’t be writing for it. But I recognize that the market isn’t perfect and I aim to make it more perfect in my own way. Someone will hopefully come along and improve my stuff similarly. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, that was a cheap shot, and I retract it. No harm done. I know I’m a real bastard, but I think I’m also right about this. I’m actually quite surprised you’ve been so bothered by my opinions. We’d better stop now before we get angry. It all goes downhill from there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-d-d-like-these-days/261403.md?page=10)