Alignment languages were kicked out of the game all the way back in 2nd Edition. So Gygax must’ve been miffed for quite a long time now.
Tracer wrote:
Third Edition re-introduced alignment languages, just different ones – Celestial (good), Abyssal (chaotic evil) and Infernal (lawful evil). Clerics get one for free, and anybody else can pick up one with their INT bonus languages, or by blowing a skill point.
Those are racial languages - spoken by Celestials, Demons, and Devils (and their decendants, and those who truck with them regularly), respectively - not ‘alignment’ languages (despite the races that speak them being inately aligned). Also only a handful of races can take them as Bonus languages (unless they’re Clerics). Humans, Half-Elves, (both of which have Any Except Secret as their Bonus language list) and Drow (which get Abyssal) are the only ones I can think of. Most creatures either have them as automatic languages (Celestial/Fiend blooded creatures or Genies for example), or else have to spend skill points on them. None of the core races (Save Human and HE) have access to them as racial Bonus Languages - the only Planar language the other core races have access to is Terran (native tongue of Earth elemental creatures), which is on the Dwarven list.
Tengu wrote:
See, I read it as an explanation as to why in the hell different alignments would have their own languages in the first place – because they are the languages of otherworldly beings of the same alignment. How likely it is that these tongues would be transmitted from other dimensions to the mundane world provokes much speculation. I would say, for example, that clearly somebody must have invented Rock ‘n’ Roll, and tried playing it backwards.
Right, but you can blow one of your free language points from your INT bonus on them. Somehow, you have learned to shoot the shit with angels. And even if you don’t have an INT bonus, you can just blow a skill point. My point is that although you don’t get alignment languages by default, you can easily pick up one of these suspiciously alignment-linked languages cheap.
I think that the idea of alignment languages comes from a sound background, but it’s taken too far. Consider Middle-Earth, for example: Most lawful good folks know and speak Adunaic, the language of Gondor (although not necessarily as a primary language), and most evil critters know the Black Tongue, language of Mordor. If one has nations associated with the various alignments, then the languages of those nations can become associated with the alignments. But an alignment language as presented in D&D, automatically known by everyone of a given alignment, and by nobody else, is just silly.
As for Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, those are just ordinary languages, albeit rather exotic ones for mere mortals. But the higher-tier aligned outsiders generally know and understand all three of them, despite having a marked preference for the one matching their alignment.
And what happened to people who changed alignment?
One thing that’s been bugging me a little–from what I’ve read in this thread and the 3.5 PHB, it doesn’t look like charisma is being treated consistently. On the one hand, it’s the raw power behind a sorceror’s spells, a dragon’s breath weapon, and the like. On the other hand, dwarves take a penalty to charisma for being gruff and curt. So what is charisma? Is it how much people like you, or is it the force of personality?
So, anyone seen what company smiling bandit works for, yet? I’d really like to know what company is producing stuff that’s totally superior to everyone else.
-Joe
I recently heard that an ex of mine has been reserving all of his Friday nights for “D&D nights” with his buddies where they (you guessed it) get drunk and play the game.
I’m not sure what to think about it.
I’m not surprised that he is into RPGs but can’t they do it on a Tuesday? Oh well. Not my problem.
Eh, one of the flaws in the system. Keep in mind that Charisma is what Intimidate is based on.
Unless, of course, THAT part of Charisma is just getting your point across.
-Joe
Not unless you’re a Human, Half-Elf, Drow, Half-Orc (I was wrong on none of the core races having them - somehow I missed HOs getting Abyssal) or Cleric.
Int-bonus languages have to be taken from a specific list, that’s listed in the race’s description. Humans, Half-Elves, and Half-Orcs are the only core races that can take the Celestial or Fiendish languages without being a Cleric. Unless you have it (or Any) in your list of Bonus languages (and you’re not starting in a class that grants them as a bonus language*), you cannot use the bonus languages granted by a high Int score to take them.
- Cleric grants Celestial, Abyssal and Infernal as bonus languages, Druid grants Sylvan, and Wizard grants Draconic. Which is kind of a ripoff for Wizzies - all but 2 of the 7 core races get Draconic, where only 3 get Abyssal or Sylvan, and only 2 get Celestial or Infernal.
As to charisma, it’s your ability to (non-physically) bend the world to your will - through natural manipulation of the energies of the universe**, or by making people like you, or by scaring them into doing what you say. Dwarves have strong personalities, but it doesn’t do them any good - they’re more annoying than either likable or scary, and not, as a whole, attuned to the universe**.
** This is a hard point to explain properly, and I haven’t really done it here, but I’ve gotten the most base part of the concept across.
Tengu wrote:
You got me there. I never noticed that.
As I explain to my players, charisma' is from the Greek for favor.’ It’s the extent to which the universe likes you.
We’re not publishng yet. Though now I expect you all to trash it when it does come out simply because you can. 
I never claimed to be nice or even brilliant. I simply don’t like how other people write systems. :wally Face it, outside of Green Ronin, most supplements aren’t very original. How many producers have even looked at magic systems other than “spell levels”? There’s nothing wrong with them, but that shouldn’t your only option.
Actually, I always liked that idea. One damage code for small weapons, another for medium, another for large and so forth. All weapons probably should be distinguished largely by size, damage type, and special uses.
Perhaps as an example of what I’m talking about in the general, we can look a the d20 Monk. What the heck are martial arts in d20? A few times per day abilities and a couple of feats? There’s no style behind that. I haven’t seen them run properly once.
So, we’re tossing in a bunch of mechanical feats (crunchy bits), which let you chain attacks, focus them into one big attack, switch bonuses, etc. They can all be used at the player’s tming, and using these costs you a bit every time, so you must plan them carefully and time them properly.
But anyway, that’s really enough of that. Frankly, defending my opinions and expressing them to people who plainly disagree with me from start to finish is pointless.
It’s not. Even WotC has presented alternate systems - Unearthed Arcana has at least one, as I recall.
And don’t worry about us ‘trashing it simply because we can’ - since we don’t know your real name, we can’t possibly trash it based on what you’ve said here - if we trash it, you know it’s just because we thought that it sucked on its own merits.
I assume you’ve read Oriental Adventures, Rokugan, Complete Warrior, and the countless Dragon magazine articles that do all this, turning the generic martial artist presented in the core book into a style-specific one - in a number of different ways. And Complete Warrior has special feats that depend on a chain of maneuvers, too.
I’m far from an expert, but off the top of my head, Malhavoc Press detailed an alternate system in Book of Eldritch Might II, and I’m pretty sure ENWorld Press released a system of alternate magic. Call of Cthulhu D20, a WOTC product, didn’t use spell levels for its magic.
At any rate, what I am used to is hearing inexperienced game designers thinking they’ve got the solution to all the ills of the genre. Rarely, a golden child comes along who can revolutionize gaming; far more often, the inexperienced designers who trash the folks currently working in the field don’t have such revolutionary ideas after all.
Frankly, I get the impression from your posts that you’ve not read widely in the D20 market: you’re trashing the market for not having ideas that the market already has. That doesn’t give me lots of confidence. But hey, if and when I see your product, I’ll judge it on its merits.
Daniel
Quoth murky:
For the same reason most social events get scheduled for Friday nights, I’d imagine. You’re done with the work (or school) week, you’d like to relax, and you’ll have the whole weekend to sleep in afterwards, so you can stay up late.
And half-orcs take a penalty to charisma for being butt-ugly.
Chronos wrote:
In fact, I think it’s a great idea. It could replace the old-fashioned “poker night” that men used to have. Lose levels, not milk money.
Dude, that would suck. You’re going to have a bunch of middle aged guys envying each others’ dice bags, doing Mountain Dew and Old Style goofballs, and breaking all the shit in the house while reenacting the Battle over the Elfin Princess.
Or maybe they take a penalty to charisma for not being a species that is prone to strong personalities, bedrock confidence, and force of will.
As I said before, I see strength as the ability to affect the physical world, and charisma as the ability to affect the spiritual/psychological world. Look at it that way, and looks are a symptom of, not a cause of, charisma schores.
Daniel
Hardly. I claim no brilliance. i only claim that I think my ideas are a darn sight better than your average publishers.
I’ve seen all those system you’ve mentioned. A few of them interested me. A few more had the right idea but poor execution. The rest were pretty dull. I’ve read a bloody lot of d20, and most of it simply doesn’t stretch the genre or mechanics very much.
But as I said, its obvious you’re not going to convince me to suddenly love all these crappy products. And I’m not going to convinve you they’re crap. That’s fine by me (well no it isn’t, don’t you know you have to LOVE ME!!!), I’m betting I can find enough people who find my stuff sufficiently distinctive that they’ll buy it. And I am an arrogant bastard, but since I’m not leaking a sentence out of my stuff beopre I publish it, you’ll have to savagely rip me to pieces then.