# So, what's going on in Catalonia? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 1, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721 "2017-10-01T13:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/21 "2017-10-02T02:25:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > **LSLGuy** said it best a few years ago; a referendum is the electorate venting and should be treated as that, not a license to enact far-reaching and irreversible constitutuional change. See my post above yours. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/22 "2017-10-02T02:41:57Z")
People in Catalonia are trying to take part of the country for themselves without asking anyone else. A guy in Madrid stands to lose part of his country from this. Oddly, he does not seem to get a vote. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/23 "2017-10-02T03:46:52Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The correct response would be “vote all you want but unless it is sanctioned through the the proper channels we wont recognise it.” and then take it from there. This is what I haven’t quite understood, and the few stories I’ve heard over the weekend on NPR and BBC News about it haven’t addressed this issue that I noticed. Why stop the vote in this almost militaristic manner instead of saying the above? Why not just let them have the vote peacefully, and then declare it illegitimate? Or is the vote actually legitimate and constitutional and binding somehow, in which case, it looks even more shitty to suppress it. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/24 "2017-10-02T03:50:24Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > People in Catalonia are trying to take part of the country for themselves without asking anyone else. A guy in Madrid stands to lose part of his country from this. Oddly, he does not seem to get a vote. Right. So, the real problem here is that Spain is an Unitarian state. Well, a Devolved Unitarian state, much like the UK. The money goes to a capital, in the capital the central government decides how and where to invest it… except for a few regions with what would be the equivalent to federal powers. Now, in the 1978 constitution Catalonia failed to fight for such rights, while Navarra and Euskadi did. Tremendous mistake for Catalans. In 2017, the richest region in Spain is Madrid, followed by the already mentioned Euskadi and Navarra, and then Catalonia. Why is the region of Madrid so rich, you ask? Do they have oil, or something? No. What they have is the City of Madrid, the Spanish capital, and in a centralized state, financial institutions and companies tend to move their headquarters there. So you can imagine why, while only a vocal fraction of Catalans want straight up independence, the overwhelming majority of us is unhappy with the status quo, and doesn’t fight the idea that much. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/25 "2017-10-02T03:59:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > This is what I haven’t quite understood, and the few stories I’ve heard over the weekend on NPR and BBC News about it haven’t addressed this issue that I noticed. Why stop the vote in this almost militaristic manner instead of saying the above? Why not just let them have the vote peacefully, and then declare it illegitimate? Or is the vote actually legitimate and constitutional and binding somehow, in which case, it looks even more shitty to suppress it. Well, imagine that the Texas Governor chose to do the same, stage a vote and then threaten with, if won, declaring unilaterally secession from the US. Maybe some Presidents would just let the whole thing play itself out. But for others, sending a showing of force there, since secession from the union goes against the Constitution, wouldn’t be inconceivable. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/26 "2017-10-02T04:19:30Z")
I guess I don’t understand resorting to the violence now, rather than later when the “sorry, but your vote is meaningless in our constitutional framework” and actual violence by secessionists to extricate themselves from Spain happen. I mean, the vote was going to happen no matter what, so why bother trying to quash it and raise sympathies for the secessionists? It seems the early heavy handed move would only strength the sympathies towards the secessionists, while a later move as a response to violent provocations would be more favorably looked upon. But I don’t run countries, so I’m probably being naive. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/27 "2017-10-02T04:25:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I guess I don’t understand resorting to the violence now, rather than later when the “sorry, but your vote is meaningless in our constitutional framework” and actual violence by secessionists to extricate themselves from Spain happen. I mean, the vote was going to happen no matter what, so why bother trying to quash it and raise sympathies for the secessionists? It seems the early heavy handed move would only strength the sympathies towards the secessionists, while a later move as a response to violent provocations would be more favorably looked upon. > > But I don’t run countries, so I’m probably being naive. Yeah, but if your base of voters are the kind that demands action, you would have to chose between losing a PR battle, or losing their support in the next elections. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/28 "2017-10-02T16:42:35Z")
The Americans and the Euros are saying that…Russia [may be behin](https://www.voanews.com/a/analysts-russia-may-be-helping-catalonia-secessionists/4050196.html)d the Catalans. :smack: Seriously, can’t they come up with less predictable excuse. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/29 "2017-10-02T17:04:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Americans and the Euros are saying that…Russia [may be behin](https://www.voanews.com/a/analysts-russia-may-be-helping-catalonia-secessionists/4050196.html)d the Catalans. > :smack: > > Seriously, can’t they come up with less predictable excuse. “Behind” is not what is being alleged. “In support of” is what is being alleged, and I don’t see why that would be surprising. They benefit from instability in The West. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/30 "2017-10-02T19:31:12Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Well, imagine that the Texas Governor chose to do the same, stage a vote and then threaten with, if won, declaring unilaterally secession from the US. They’ve already tried it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/31 "2017-10-02T21:43:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The videos don’t look good at all. This is, ultimately, a democratic vote. The government may not like it and say that it is illegitimate and that’s fine. The correct response would be “vote all you want but unless it is sanctioned through the the proper channels we wont recognise it.” and then take it from there. That’s what was done with the vote of 2 years ago. The response from the independentists was to crank things up further. > [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Now, in the 1978 constitution Catalonia failed to fight for such rights, while Navarra and Euskadi did. Tremendous mistake for Catalans. In 2017, the richest region in Spain is Madrid, followed by the already mentioned Euskadi and Navarra, and then Catalonia. They were offered a foral-type system and rejected it. And even right now, with tax levels being set from Barcelona (in fact, right now each region sets its own tax levels for everything except VAT), “Spain is robbing us” is one of their favorite slogans. There is a constant federalization, but it’s being done under the table; more and more decisions and management get divested to the regions but it’s never widely published. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/32 "2017-10-02T22:05:14Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > They were offered a foral-type system and rejected it. Probably. Tarradellas was all about an Unitarian system, for what I understand. > [@Nava](#): > > And even right now, with tax levels being set from Barcelona (in fact, right now each region sets its own tax levels for everything except VAT), “Spain is robbing us” is one of their favorite slogans. There is a constant federalization, but it’s being done under the table; more and more decisions and management get divested to the regions but it’s never widely published. No. Not with the Popular Party in power. They keep fighting any attempt at devolution tooth and nail. As is their right, of course, but let’s not pretend they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/33 "2017-10-02T22:13:42Z")
The setting of the taxes was devolved by the Populares. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/34 "2017-10-02T22:16:53Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The setting of the taxes was devolved by the Populares. Okay. Show me. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/35 "2017-10-03T02:04:29Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And outside agitators willing to finance it. It might spawn some low level terror aka The Basques, but no outside governments will finance civil war. You sure? Putin seems awful keen to upset western governments. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/36 "2017-10-03T08:32:58Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Okay. Show me. Like I said it’s a bitch to search for, since it’s as un-publicized as possible. From what I find the devolution of 50% was approved under Zapatero, but implemented under Rajoy (laaaaaaaag); I can’t find exact information on when was it decided that the non-foral regions would set the tables but I can tell you when did I start being given Catalan laws as the reference by my Catalan customers\*: two years ago. - Being autónoma in Navarra, I’ve been having to explain to people that me no talky with Madrid treasury since I set up shop+. Now I need to explain that me no talky with Barcelona treasury for company-related purposes. And no, Barcelona doesn’t set which VAT codes can I have, either (see Navarrese law, attached)&. - Not 100% correct, sadly. This year I had to talk with Madrid to explain that yes pretty please I’d like to be back in the Registry of International Operators. Because I invoice abroad and my international customers get cranky if they don’t see me listed …my business model? Uh, see here a website explaining what a freelance SAP consultant does, and here my linkedin… They’d taken me off the ROI because I hadn’t filed the “international charges and payments” document with Madrid (I’d filed the Navarrese equivalent). & Apparently, the codes defined in Catalonia match the old ones: there was a review a few years back, adding a bunch of new codes such as “IT consultant”, but several of these aren’t available in the Catalan listing. Getting my insurance broker (Catalan) to understand that no, I’m not a Quality Auditor and my legal responsibilities have nothing to do with theirs, was a PITA. Why not use a Navarrese broker? Because when they hear that I bill international I need to call 112. > [@madsircool](#): > > And outside agitators willing to finance it. It might spawn some low level terror aka The Basques, but no outside governments will finance civil war. You have some strange ideas about what level of terror we used to live under; thousands of people moved out of the region to avoid being targetted. People would avoid using their vacation homes to avoid being targetted, or have police escorts. We’d be placed in the list of targets for the sin of having a too-long lastname. Or do you think that the worst we ever had amounted to a bunch of hooligans burning trashcans? ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/37 "2017-10-03T09:30:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Like I said it’s a bitch to search for, since it’s as un-publicized as possible. From what I find the devolution of 50% was approved under Zapatero, but implemented under Rajoy (laaaaaaaag); I can’t find exact information on when was it decided that the non-foral regions would set the tables but I can tell you when did I start being given Catalan laws as the reference by my Catalan customers\*: two years ago. No, you’re talking about the Reform of the Autonomy Statute. Decided in the Catalan Parliament in 2005, accorded with Zapatero in 2006 after several retouches, and then agreed via referendum in Catalonia. The Popular Party were so against it all, they presented a recourse to it’s totality to the Constitutional Court even before it was projected as a law. The Constitutional Court told them to hold their horses until then. When that happened, PP fought to have the whole of the Reform declared unconstitutional. Finally, in 2010, the Constitutional Court got rid of 150 points in the Reform, which meant that things barely had changed, and approved what little was left of it, and even that was against the Popular Party wishes, who wanted none of it. And in 2010, yes, Rajoy was in power- but let’s be clear, the Popular Party did absolutely fight tooth and nail against it. It’s not even a question of opinion. As is their right. They are unabashedly an Unitarian party. But they are part of the impasse here. They will never budge, and neither will Secessionists. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/38 "2017-10-03T13:36:04Z")
> **[Catalonia Referendum: Mass strikes bring region to standstill](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861742/Catalonia-spain-referendum-strike-independence-barcelona-catalunya-violence-video)** > > CATALONIA is at a standstill after thousands of protesters took to the streets during a mass strike to protest the Spanish government's violent crackdown on voters during the independence referendum. "…more than 2.2m Catalans were able to vote, with 90 per cent favouring freedom from Spain. … Federico Santi, an analyst at Eurasia Group in London, said the vote was “probably the worst outcome for Madrid”. He added: “There was violence but they didn’t stop the vote either and public opinion in Catalonia is more polarised. It is clear that risks to government stability are increasing." ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/39 "2017-10-03T15:03:21Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > No, you’re talking about the Reform of the Autonomy Statute. Decided in the Catalan Parliament in 2005, accorded with Zapatero in 2006 after several retouches, and then agreed via referendum in Catalonia. That’s a different thing, I’m talking about the country-wide reform of IRPF approved in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721/40 "2017-10-03T15:39:23Z")
Okay- let me see… Lowering the IRPF (yeah, what a surprise), taxes for firing compensation, end of the tax exemption for less than 1500 €… I’m sorry, but it says nothing about regions in what I’m reading- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-going-on-in-catalonia/797721.md?page=3)