# So what's with New Hampshire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131 "2004-11-05T04:01:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/21 "2004-11-08T21:41:40Z")
There’s a _new_ Hampshire? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/22 "2004-11-08T22:02:04Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > There’s a _new_ Hampshire? And here I thought that Americans were the ones woefully uninformed about international geography. There’s a New Jersey and a New Mexico too… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/23 "2004-11-08T22:10:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The taxes are high and we don’t feel represented by our government. The taxes are the [47th highest in the nation](http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=43409&format=). And they’ve been cutting the income tax lately. If this gets out Teddy Kennedy might be president in 2008. As for the VT exodus theory, do you have a cite? VT isn’t exactly bursting with people as it is, and unlike MA, there aren’t a lot of jobs that people would commute across the state border to keep. In my observation, Republicans in New England are somewhat different then the current national party (witness Jim Jeffords), and as such they are becoming less likely to vote republican in national elections. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/24 "2004-11-08T23:51:07Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > There are lots and lots of people just like me who have to live in MA because that’s where the jobs are but hate it. This state is corrupt and not well run. As compared to NH under Gov. Benson, the Republican? Oh yeah, he just got run out of office after only 2 years because of his administration’s corruption and mismanagement. But you’re convinced the Democrat Lynch will be worse? Got news for ya, chum, you’ll find corruption and mismanagement _everywhere_. > [@](#): > > Housing is extremely expensive. Already noted. Note too that southern NH is catching up. > [@](#): > > The taxes are high and we don’t feel represented by our government. Ted Kennedy is my senator fer cryin out loud! Ah, the traditional bogeyman of the partisans. Not a convincing argument except to those who think that the name alone is sufficient. > [@](#): > > I work in a high tech company on the 128 belt. I know several people who are job searching exclusively in NH and Maine just to get away from here. Such jobs aren’t easy to find, and people search for years. Then perhaps it’s time to reassess their situation a little more objectively, don’tcha think? Meanwhile, yes, I \*will \* make jokes about the Free Staters and those who express pretty much the same sentiments as they do. I \*will \* make jokes about those who think that paying both MA income tax and NH property tax is somehow a mark of moral superiority. I will keep bitching about Maine income tax, and be thankful that my wife’s part-time job doesn’t get our combined MA income to the point where we have to pay any tax on it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/25 "2004-11-09T00:04:00Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > The taxes are the [47th highest in the nation](http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=43409&format=). And they’ve been cutting the income tax lately. If this gets out Teddy Kennedy might be president in 2008. Ahem… that’d be 47th lowest in the nation. Numbers confuse me. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/26 "2004-11-09T00:10:41Z")
Oh yeah, something else I will continue to joke about is all my engineering coworkers on big military projects telling me about individual self-reliance and minimum taxation and government being the enemy of freedom. Many other coworkers, though, and I, will \*admit \* we’re on welfare. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/27 "2004-11-09T02:24:34Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Ahem… that’d be 47th lowest in the nation. Numbers confuse me. Actually, I think you were right first time. Might be better to say ‘4th lowest’ though (rather than ‘47th highest’). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/28 "2004-11-09T11:39:24Z")
I should also mention that Ted Kennedy has been extremely effective at helping bring in those government contracts that allow so many defense/tech workers to be able to afford to think of moving away. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/29 "2004-11-09T14:15:56Z")
Ya. He’s powerful enough that he can rip off the rest of the country to bring such wonders to us as the big dig. :rolleyes: > [@Elvis](#): > > As compared to NH under Gov. Benson, the Republican? Oh yeah, he just got run out of office after only 2 years because of his administration’s corruption and mismanagement. But you’re convinced the Democrat Lynch will be worse? Got news for ya, chum, you’ll find corruption and mismanagement everywhere. Sure you will. But, it’s the opinion of me and lots of other people that you find more of it in MA. The big dig. The state highway system. The state police. Massport. UMASS under the leadership of Billy Bulger (until recently). NH is downright boring when compared to MA as far as corruption goes. Benson bought himself an SUV. Big deal. > [@](#): > > Already noted. Note too that southern NH is catching up. It worth mentioning again. It is just downright unaffordable to buy a house in MA unless you are making stupid money. This alone justifies moving across the border. The rest is just icing. > [@](#): > > Ah, the traditional bogeyman of the partisans. Not a convincing argument except to those who think that the name alone is sufficient. Huh? Do I really need to justify or even explain why many conservatives would not like being represented by Ted Kennedy? C’mon. Don’t be deliberately obtuse. > [@](#): > > Then perhaps it’s time to reassess their situation a little more objectively, don’tcha think? > > Meanwhile, yes, I will make jokes about the Free Staters and those who express pretty much the same sentiments as they do. I will make jokes about those who think that paying both MA income tax and NH property tax is somehow a mark of moral superiority. I will keep bitching about Maine income tax, and be thankful that my wife’s part-time job doesn’t get our combined MA income to the point where we have to pay any tax on it at all. I am at a loss as to why jobs being hard to find in rural NH and Maine is a reason for those searching to seek objectivity. I have never heard of anyone who feels a “moral superiority” from paying taxes in two states. Where’s this from? It’s very arrogant of you to look down your nose like this at the many reasonable people who just have a different opinion on this than you do. There are many very valid reasons why one would choose to live and raise a family in NH rather than MA. You might not agree with those reasons, but that doesn’t make those who do somehow worthy of your ridicule. Just to toss another couple of points out there: Hunting in MA sucks. No hunting on Sundays, no hunting during week of thanksgiving. Less land to hunt. Much shorter hunting season. Gun laws suck in MA. Guns must be on a certain list of “safe” guns before they can be purchased. Guns on these lists are more expensive and hard to find. Getting permits is a hassle. But, since you don’t hunt, anybody who is swayed by these issues is an idiot who deserves to be mocked, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/30 "2004-11-10T03:26:01Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Ya. He’s powerful enough that he can rip off the rest of the country to bring such wonders to us as the big dig. :rolleyes: You say that like it’s a bad thing. I’ll be a little blunter: Your own job, your very livelihood, just might be attributable to Kennedy’s efforts in Washington. Think carefully before you scorn him. > [@](#): > > Sure you will. But, it’s the opinion of me and lots of other people that you find more of it in MA. Etc. You can certainly expect to find 5 times the size of state government in a state with 5 times the population, and you’ll find 5 times the opportunities for corruption and mismanagement, too. So? > [@](#): > > It is just downright unaffordable to buy a house in MA unless you are making stupid money. This alone justifies moving across the border. The rest is just icing. It isn’t that much different in NH now either, is all I’m sayin’. > [@](#): > > Do I really need to justify or even explain why many conservatives would not like being represented by Ted Kennedy? C’mon. Don’t be deliberately obtuse. It isn’t obtuseness to inquire where this distaste for Kennedy in particular comes from, since it generally appears to be reflexive rather than thoughtful. He’s “the \*conservative \* Senator from MA”, remember? He’s also been one of the righties’ favorite bogeymen for many years, although they’ve given much of his air time to Hillary in recent years. > [@](#): > > I am at a loss as to why jobs being hard to find in rural NH and Maine is a reason for those searching to seek objectivity. Because, as you point out, they ain’t there. Not much point looking then. Makes more sense to reconsider the costs and benefits of staying in MA, with less emotion and more numbers. > [@](#): > > I have never heard of anyone who feels a “moral superiority” from paying taxes in two states. Where’s this from? The feeling of moral superiority and its frequent proclamation is that which derives from living in the “Live Free or Die” State, despite the higher tax burden that comes along with it. > [@](#): > > It’s very arrogant of you to look down your nose like this at the many reasonable people who just have a different opinion on this than you do. Not if their opinions come down to simply “Ted Kennedy! Taxachusetts!”, no, it isn’t arrogant at all. You pay more and get less. That makes no sense. > [@](#): > > Just to toss another couple of points out there: > > Hunting in MA sucks. And we get fewer people killed just for daring to step outside into their yards during deer season. > [@](#): > > Gun laws suck in MA. Guns must be on a certain list of “safe” guns before they can be purchased. Guns on these lists are more expensive and hard to find. Getting permits is a hassle. You say that like it’s a bad thing. Fewer people get killed on the streets of Boston, too. > [@](#): > > But, since you don’t hunt, anybody who is swayed by these issues is an idiot who deserves to be mocked, right? :rolleyes: You don’t know that I don’t hunt. But anyone who refuses to consider that there might be very good reasons for what MA does with its laws is certainly setting himself up for a good mocking, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131/31 "2004-11-10T14:25:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You say that like it’s a bad thing. I’ll be a little blunter: Your own job, your very livelihood, just might be attributable to Kennedy’s efforts in Washington. Think carefully before you scorn him. So, it’s OK for MA to rip off the rest of the country with wasteful programs just because we have a powerful senator who can get away with it? I don’t think so. I disapprove, even if I am getting bennefits from it. > [@](#): > > Etc. You can certainly expect to find 5 times the size of state government in a state with 5 times the population, and you’ll find 5 times the opportunities for corruption and mismanagement, too. So? I disagree that the increase in corruption in MA is there simply because of a larger scale. I think it’s institutional. It’s just become the way the state is run. > [@](#): > > It isn’t that much different in NH now either, is all I’m sayin’. It’s a lot different from the searching for RE that I’ve done. In fairness though, you can also find more affordable RE if you go into western MA. But, as long as I’m doing the extra commuting, I might as well get to live in NH. Plus, here on the North Shore, western MA isn’t much of an option. > [@](#): > > It isn’t obtuseness to inquire where this distaste for Kennedy in particular comes from, since it generally appears to be reflexive rather than thoughtful. He’s “the \*conservative \* Senator from MA”, remember? He’s also been one of the righties’ favorite bogeymen for many years, although they’ve given much of his air time to Hillary in recent years. Look, this is really simple. Ted Kennedy is one of the most liberal senators in the country. The whole “conservative senator from MA” was based around this assumption. He’s killed someone. He is the attack dog of the left. His speeches bash Bush with harsh rhetoric that other Senators wouldn’t use. I don’t expect you to agree that Kennedy is a bad senator, but it’s shocking that you would argue that the distaste conservatives have for him is simply reflexive and without reason. > [@](#): > > Because, as you point out, they ain’t there. Not much point looking then. Makes more sense to reconsider the costs and benefits of staying in MA, with less emotion and more numbers. Here it is again. You like staying in MA, so those who want to leave must be just basing it on emotion and not numbers. This is a very condescending attitude. > [@](#): > > The feeling of moral superiority and its frequent proclamation is that which derives from living in the “Live Free or Die” State, despite the higher tax burden that comes along with it. I have no idea where this comes from. I’ve never seen this. > [@](#): > > Not if their opinions come down to simply “Ted Kennedy! Taxachusetts!”, no, it isn’t arrogant at all. You pay more and get less. That makes no sense. Even more condescending to those who have a different opinion than you. It’s not what you think, so it must be stupid. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And we get fewer people killed just for daring to step outside into their yards during deer season. Nobody gets killed just for stepping outside into their yards during deer season. There are 78,000 people hunting in NH every year and only an average of four accidents, according to the [Union Leader](http://www.theunionleader.com/columns.html?body=By%20JOHN%20Harrigan). This is by far safer than golf, swimming, football or basketball. Since 1993 there has only been one fatal hunting accident in NH and that was a hunter. [cite](http://cmstage.us.publicus.com/article/20041010/REPOSITORY/410100356/1001/NEWS01) Your fears about hunting are not warranted. You have made another good point about NH’s superiority to MA, though. I’d like to live in a state where I don’t have to face ridicule and mis-understanding from ignorant people just because I’m a hunter by anti-hunting liberals. > [@](#): > > You say that like it’s a bad thing. Fewer people get killed on the streets of Boston, too. Ya, there’s a lot less crime in Boston than in NH. :rolleyes: Crime rates are another good reason for leaving MA for NH. The draconian gun control laws in MA haven’t reduced crime. Boston has banned all handguns for some time now and there are still shootings regularly. > [@](#): > > You don’t know that I don’t hunt. But anyone who refuses to consider that there might be very good reasons for what MA does with its laws is certainly setting himself up for a good mocking, isn’t he? I made a hunch about you and hunting. Are you telling me that I’m wrong? If you are a hunter you are one of the most woefully misinformed one’s I’ve ever seen. I’m not refusing to consider anything. I’ve read the MA gun laws. Have you? I’ve studied them, as I feel I have to in order not to be in violation of the law. Have you? I also read and study the MA hunting laws every year prior to hunting season. Do you? The gun laws in MA are just fucking dumb. There really isn’t any way to put it other than that. They are clearly written by people who don’t know the first thing about guns. They use words like “rifle” and “shotgun” interchangably as if they were the same thing. (They aren’t.) The hunting laws make it basically impossible to hunt here because of the many restrictions and as a result there is a badly overpopulated deer population in many parts of the state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-with-new-hampshire/273131.md?page=1)