# So, what's wrong with communism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2000, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114 "2000-04-20T19:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/41 "2000-04-21T16:01:00Z")
[quote] Originally posted by Cosmin: Two incentives: [ul][li]You know you’re part of a great system and you have to do your part to keep it going.[/li][li]If you don’t do your work, you’ll be ‘taken care of’ soon enough…[/ul][/li][/quote] Good luck finding enough self-starters to get _that_ idea off the ground. A tiny minority is going to work hard because of the “great system” of which they are supposedly a part. The rest are going to slack off just as much as they can. Sorry. It’s human nature. End result: Economic collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/42 "2000-04-21T16:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If you don’t do your work, you’ll be ‘taken care of’ soon enough… Mangeorge, that’s the “motivation” for doing the crappy job in a communist country- fear of being purged. And I do think that financial incentive is what leads people to become janitors, garbagemen, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trout_Mask_Replica)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/43 "2000-04-21T16:19:00Z")
What’s wrong with Communism? For starters, the fact that if this discussion were to occur in a Communist society, a lot of people would get reported to the local Party muckamucks and end up on a train to the gulag. * * * **TMR** _If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley right around the corner._ ---
**Author:** ![Cosmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@Cosmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/44 "2000-04-22T05:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by spoke-: > A tiny minority is going to work hard because of the “great system” of which they are supposedly a part. The rest are going to slack off just as much as they can No, the rest wouldn’t slack off for the reason I mentioned earlier - fear of being punished. After a few rebels are taken care of the rest of the would-be rebels develop a ‘healthy fear’ for their government, which is enough to keep them on track. * * * “Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer” ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/45 "2000-04-22T05:14:00Z")
OK, fear will keep your Widget factory workers in line. But how do you motivate people to make better Widgets? If I had a great idea about how to improve the Widget, what would convince me to share it? Maybe those crappy little medals the USSR used to give out? So maybe not economic ruin, but economic stagnation. * * * “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” - Adam Smith ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/46 "2000-04-22T05:20:00Z")
Communism cannot exist without force. The basis of communism is that economic transactions are not based on the principle that I can charge you as much as you will pay me for my services or property. The idea that you need the ‘right’ people is ridiculous. As soon as someone realizes that they have more to offer society than somebody else, you need force. Unless by the ‘right’ people you meant mindless robots that is. * * * “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” - Adam Smith ---
**Author:** ![Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trout_Mask_Replica)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/47 "2000-04-22T05:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by waterj2: > **If I had a great idea about how to improve the Widget, what would convince me to share it?** And even if you did share it, what if said idea didn’t work out? ‘Comrade Trout, your idea to improve production of widgets has been a dismal failure and cost the Party much money. You are clearly a saboteur. Off to the gulag with you!’ * * * **TMR** _If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley right around the corner._ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/48 "2000-04-22T05:30:00Z")
John Corrado: > [@](#): > > Immediately after the Bolsheviks took power in 1917, the Allied powers made plans to invade Russia in order to restore the 'Whites" (the liberal constitutionalists) to power in order to A) return Russia to the fray against Germany and B) stamp out the Communists before they had a chance to actually start up a working government and possibly give hope to the Communist insurgents across Europe. The invasion didn’t really start until 1918, and German troops eventually joined the fight on the side of the Whites (in order to keep the Communist revolution from spreading into Germany). > > The end result was a long civil war, with Americans, Germans, French, Austrian and White Russian troops fighting against the Bolshevik government. Eventually, the Reds defeated the Whites, and the Allies decided to give up hope for overthrowing the Communist government. If this is what oldscratch was referring to, then he’s wrong on two counts: 1. I was not ignorant of this 2. It does not contradict my claim that there hasn’t been an invasion after recognition. > [@](#): > > Feel free to squirm out of that by stating that “Well, they weren’t a recognized government, which is what I meant”; I don’t consider it “squirming”. I specifically included the phrase “recognized” in my claim. And recognition is very important. Why should the Capitalist countries be obligated to recognize the “legitimacy” of a bunch of rebels? From the Capitalist point of view, they were trying to prevent an usurpation. The term “invasion” refers to the act of having one’s military enter a country without the permission of that country. Well, at that time there really wasn’t a single government with the authority to deny permission. > [@](#): > > but the point is that the Russian Civil War proved to a lot of Communists that the capitalist countries were just waiting for a moment of weakness on the part of the Soviet Union, and then, WHAM! another invasion to overthrow them. And all that time, the Communists were quite explicit in their intention of overthrowing every Capitalist country. So on one hand we have Capitalist countries implying, by their actions, that they might try to overthrow Communism, and on the other hand we have a Communist country quite explicitly stating that they intend on overthrowing the Capitalist countries. I really don’t consider Communism to be innocent in this. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@Cosmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmin)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/49 "2000-04-22T05:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Trout Mask Replica: > \*\*What’s wrong with Communism? > > For starters, the fact that if this discussion were to occur in a Communist society, a lot of people would get reported to the local Party muckamucks and end up on a train to the gulag. > \*\* In the 50’s the US government worked in the exact same way - mention communism, get dragged off to jail for being a ‘red’. It’s necessary to keep order… you can’t have people going around saying another system of government might be better, cuz that’d be treason! If people are doing what they’re supposed to, no one gets dragged off anywhere. Your argument could be used against the US system of government too. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by waterj2: > **OK, fear will keep your Widget factory workers in line. But how do you motivate people to make better Widgets? If I had a great idea about how to improve the Widget, what would convince me to share it? Maybe those crappy little medals the USSR used to give out?** If fear works to keep them in line, why couldn’t it work to keep them making better widgets too? “Make me a better widget or I’ll have you imprisoned.” Result - new widgets by the end of the week. Also, people who like the system (I’m sure there’s plenty of them) would make better widgets anyways, simply because they want to help their country. * * * “Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer” ---
**Author:** ![Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trout_Mask_Replica)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/50 "2000-04-22T05:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Cosmin: > **In the 50’s the US government worked in the exact same way - mention communism, get dragged off to jail for being a ‘red’.** I don’t know if HUAC actually imprisoned anyone. They did ruin a lot of people’s lives though. In any case, HUAC and McCarthy are reviled today, and for good reason. You’re trying to compare a brief period of hysteria in American history to what was standard operating procedure under Communism. > [@](#): > > **It’s necessary to keep order… you can’t have people going around saying another system of government might be better, cuz that’d be treason!** So disagreement with the government is tantamount to treason, in your view? > [@](#): > > \*\*Your argument could be used against the US system of government too. > \*\* No it couldn’t. Both Communist and Fascist organizations exist and are tolerated in the United States. * * * **TMR** _If you believed in yourself, and tore enough holes in your pants, there was always a mist-filled alley right around the corner._ ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/51 "2000-04-21T18:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If fear works to keep them in line, why couldn’t it work to keep them making better widgets too? "Make me a better widget or I’ll have you imprisoned."Result - new widgets by the end of the week. Hmm, so you are advocating a system where the motivation is provided by _ **fear** _??? How depressing! Sure sounds like the Soviet system to me. And we saw how well _that_ worked out. Greed, or at least the desire to earn a good living, is a better motivator than fear, for many reasons. How does fear motivate me to invent a computer, for example? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/52 "2000-04-21T18:03:00Z")
QUOTE]Originally posted by The Ryan: \*\* You misunderstood my point. I wasn’t just showing that Communism is contrary to the Constitution; I was showing that Communism is contrary to the principles underlying the Constitution. The fact that Jefferson thought property wsa an inalienable right is a manisfestation of the fact that property rights are linked to all other rights, rather than a proof of this. \*\* [/quote] You are right that communism is opposed to property rights for rich landowners and capitalists. > [@](#): > > \*\* > All forms of speech require private property. How can you possibly disagree with that? Can you name a form of speech that doesn’t require access to property rights? \*\* Fine. Under your reasoning then not everyone has rights to free speech under our government. But, what you are talking about is an absurdity. If you look at what happened after the Russian, Spanish, or Portuguese revolutions you see a flowering of free speech. Much more than we have today. Sure I can go out on a street corner and shout things, much as I could under Communism. But, I don’t have access to the means of production; I don’t have access to the television or radio. Under Communism, since workers control the means of production, workers have much more access to free speech. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Nope. To deny people the fruits of their labor is theft. While capitalism may “exploit” workers and take some of what the proletariat makes, in Communism the State takes _everything_. \*\* Too deny a person the fruits of their labor is theft. I agree. That is what Capitalism does on a daily basis. Therefore, under your argument, a capitalist government cannot exist. Also a Kleptocracy is not really a government but a figment of the imagination. Makes a lot of sense. In reality, under Communism, the workers control the means of production and actually decide what happens to their labor power. Sounds a lot more like a fair Government than Capitalism. > [@](#): > > \*\* > That conclusion is the logical result of two premises, which I quite clearly laid out: > > 1. In Communism, the State owns all means of production. > 2. Citizens are a means of production. \*\* Citizens are not a means of production. Go read the communist manifesto or even some basic economics texts. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you which to challenge one or both of these premises, then do so. Just calling my conclusion “silly” isn’t an argument. \*\* I did challenge them. You are right calling your conclusions silly isn’t an argument. They were silly though. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Considering the fact that Marx recognized the existence of the middle class _before_ he wrote the Manifesto, it seems pretty clear to me that it wasn’t created by Communism. \*\* You really didn’t pay attention to what Galen was saying. He meant that the middle class, as it exists today, would not be here if not for the CIO. I have some reservations about the way he stated it was a mostly correct argument. > [@](#): > > \*\* > “The main” force? I don’t think so. Were they helpful in the civil rights movement? Yes. So was, as I recall, Rev. Phelps. Doesn’t make either of them right.\*\* Go and read the two books I mentioned earlier. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Riboflavin: > \*\*Communism is a disgusting and morally repugnant philosophy that advocates the imposition of a totalitarian government, genocide, and the destruction of the individual. \*\* You cite the need for people to read the Communist manifesto, go point out to me where it states that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Imposition of a totalitarian system is a cornerstone of Communism; the major step involved in getting to the utopian bit is the imposition of the ‘Dictatorship of the Proletariat’. They don’t even mince words, they call it a dictatorship. \*\* When they were using these terms, it was a different world. Dictatorship didn’t have the negative connotation it has today. To dictate is to tell people what to do. By dictatorship of the proletariat, they mean that the proletariat, the vast majority of people, would dictate how the government is run. Doesn’t sound so bad in that light does it? > [@](#): > > \*\* > And it’s quite clear that this IS supposed to be a totalitarian government. Ironically, there’s no method given for getting rid of the totalitarian government; according to the manifesto, it will just fade away of it’s own accord and usher in an era where everything works fine. In actuality, people get fed up with the dictatorship long before it fades away, and switch to less totalitarian forms of government that involve capitalism and private property. \*\* It never says that it is a totalitarian government. You are either mistaken or lying. There is no method for getting rid o f the totalitarian government because it never talks about a totalitarian government. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Communism also advocates large-scale genocide; part of the job that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat (and the revolution leading up to it) is supposed to do is to kill all of the people opposed to Communism. \*\* No it doesn’t. Specific people and governments, including the United States have advocated large-scale genocide. No, actual, communist government has done so. And very few that call themselves communist have done so. Many governments the US has supported have practiced large-scale genocide. Also you’re not supposed to kill all people opposed to Communism. I don’t know where you got that. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Liquidate the bourgieouise, the intelligencia, and all of those other undesirables. The only real difference between Communism and Nazism on the subject of genocide is that Communism advocates slaughtering people based on class, while Nazism advocates slaughtering people based on race. \*\* Absolutely not. Again, Communism doesn’t advocate slaughtering people. Many leaders of the Russian revolution were intelligencia, they didn’t advocate slaughtering themselves. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Under a communist system, the individual person has no rights. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” In other words, if your best ability is at engineering, but you hate engineering, you still have to stick it out as an engineer rather than take another career path, as that wouldn’t be giving ‘according to your ability’. I wonder how many of the supporters of Communism (who tend to be artist-types or university-professor-types) would like to find out that their ‘ability’ was determined to be shoveling shit on a farm or working as a garbageman. I also wonder how many vegitarian communists would like to find out that their best ability was determined to be working at a slaughterhouse. \*\* Now you’re just getting bizarre. You are completely misreading the passage. From each according to his ability means that if I’m crippled obviously I can’t give as much as someone who’s not. It has nothing to do with sticking at engineering because you’re good at it, or forcing vegetarians to go work in slaughterhouses. [quote] \*\* And ‘to each according to his needs’ is much darker than the bli ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/53 "2000-04-21T18:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If fear works to keep them in line, why couldn’t it work to keep them making better widgets too? > “Make me a better widget or I’ll have you imprisoned.” > Result - new widgets by the end of the week. You can’t be serious! First, how do you know that among all the widget workers, I’m the one that knows how to make better widgets? I’m usually the first to go along with the system, but the boss has been a jerk to me recently, and I just never bothered to mention to anyone that I just figured out how to boost Widget production by 30%. If there’s no incentive to use my brains to help you, I’m not going to. You may be able to force me to work, but you simply can’t force me to think. How are you going to know what I’m capable of thinking? Give everyone an IQ test at the age of three and shoot them if they fail to live up to their potential? Communism can never be economically successful because of the amount of effort that you must waste trying to find new ways of getting more work out of me. Also, your posts answer the OP. What is wrong with communism is that is a system in which people must work out of fear for their lives. Like slavery. * * * “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” - Adam Smith ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/54 "2000-04-21T18:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > \*\*“What’s wrong with communism?” > > Other than it’s oppressive, dehumanizing and has utterly failed everywhere it’s been tried, nothing is ‘wrong’ with communism.\*\* I like the sentiment, but even if you exclude those things, there’s still plenty wrong with communism. Those are the big things, though. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/55 "2000-04-21T18:17:00Z")
oldscratch - > [@](#): > > In reality, under Communism, the workers control the means of production and actually decide what happens to their labor power. Sounds a lot more like a fair Government than Capitalism. **In Reality** no communist government has been controlled by ‘The Workers’. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/56 "2000-04-21T18:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > \*\* > I don’t consider it “squirming”. I specifically included the phrase “recognized” in my claim. And recognition is very important. Why should the Capitalist countries be obligated to recognize the “legitimacy” of a bunch of rebels? From the Capitalist point of view, they were trying to prevent an usurpation. The term “invasion” refers to the act of having one’s military enter a country without the permission of that country. Well, at that time there really wasn’t a single government with the authority to deny permission. \*\* It is squirming. You said recognized, true. The people recognized the government. The government was recognized by Germany through the treaty of Brest-Litovsk on March 3rd 1918. You are trying to squirm your way around the facts. If they couldn’t deny permission, how could they sign a treaty. How convienient, all we have to do is not recognize the government of a country and it’s not an invasion. So, we could say that Iran doesn’t have a government, and invade. But, it’s not an invasion. Sorry, you can’t get out of it. Those countries invaded with the express purpose of destroying the Bolshevik government. Papers at the time referred to it as a legitimate government. It was a government. Even if it wasn’t it was still an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/57 "2000-04-21T18:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CheapBastid: > **oldscratch - > In Reality no communist government has been controlled by ‘The Workers’.** Partialy right, partially wrong. No Communist government has been able to survive very long. Many governments called themselves Communist but weren’t. Those were not controlled by the workers. * * * It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality ---
**Author:** ![Fyodor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/958977/32.png) [@Fyodor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fyodor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/58 "2000-04-21T19:30:00Z")
Well, well. I was just about fed up with the babbling on this message board (ref. MPSIMS or the Pit). I’ve been rereading my old book “The Straight Dope” 1984, refreshing myself with the wit and wisdom of Cecil and was thinking the best use of my time would be to just hit the home page once a week and see what Cecil deems worthy of discussion, and I should ignore these boards as a waste of time. Then I stumble across an intelligent vigorous thread like this on a timely and serious topic. During the 90s I spent five years inside the former Soviet Union. I’m a history buff and I’ve read a lot of the current and classic books on Communism and Russia. I’m not going to even try and argue in detail what is wrong with Communism. All I can say is that if you saw what it did to a country and its people, if you knew all the details of what happened, there is no way on Earth you would support that system. There is so much that could be said. If you are truly interested in this read, read, read, as many books as you can find. The truth is sacred and there is right and wrong, good and evil, in the world. That anyone could support a Communist ideal doesn’t surprise me but it will never function in the real world. Any totalitarian effort to radically change human nature and society is going to have to get very brutal very fast. You posters don’t know what FEAR is. To me, the supporters of Communism are almost as repugnant as Nazis. Usually it is just plain ignorance, some idealistic philosophical concept fluttering like a butterfly in their brains. I would like to think we are all part of a civilized and quiet global agreement on Communism. Nobody wants a bloodbath. There are still hundreds of millions of good communists alive on the planet. Their system has crashed and burned. They’ve had more than eighty years - four generations? - and nothing remotely resembling a decent healthy society has ever emerged under communism. To compare the social successes and progress of the Western World in the 20th century to Communism is to weep. We are all going to kick back peacefully for a few more generations to let this grotesque political philosophy fade away. The world will experience iron-fisted dictatorships again as madmen gain political power and try and force their vision on the people but one-man-rule is fading slowly off the planet. I hope democracy continues to refine itself. The Teeming Millions shall not stand by and be told what to think by any government. The government must work for us. My wife is calling. She wants me to go putter around on the renovations to our house. We own it, it’s ours, we worked hard for it, no police can enter without a warrant EVER. We live in peace and comfort and sometimes we treat ourselves with a taste of luxury. Nobody we know has ever disappeared for a political crime. A man in Russia was deported to Siberia because the local chief of police was “reasonably sure the man had contemplated a criminal act”. Read, read, read. ---
**Author:** ![Cosmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@Cosmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/59 "2000-04-21T19:40:00Z")
Yeah, I was wrong. Imposed communism would never work. But if the people _wanted_ to share work and wealth, couldn’t that work? Isn’t that the basic idea of both Communism and Christianity? * * * “Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer” ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114/60 "2000-04-21T20:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Al Zheimers: > \*\*Well, well. I was just about fed up with the babbling on this message board (ref. MPSIMS or the Pit). I’ve been rereading my old book “The Straight Dope” 1984, refreshing myself with the wit and wisdom of Cecil and was thinking the best use of my time would be to just hit the home page once a week and see what Cecil deems worthy of discussion, and I should ignore these boards as a waste of time. > > Then I stumble across an intelligent vigorous thread like this on a timely and serious topic. \*\* Glad you think so. I believe this is a pretty good debate too. Much better than some of the creationist crap that floats around. > [@](#): > > \*\* > All I can say is that if you saw what it did to a country and its people, if you knew all the details of what happened, there is no way on Earth you would support that system. There is so much that could be said. If you are truly interested in this read, read, read, as many books as you can find. \*\* I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The USSR was not Communist. It was a State Capitalist dictatorship, that to tell the truth, was pretty disgusting. From this point on, nothing against you Al, if anyone mentions anything again about “look at Russia” I will just ignore them. If anyone wants to start a separate thread on “Was Russia Communist?” I would be happy to contribute. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The truth is sacred and there is right and wrong, good and evil, in the world. That anyone could support a Communist ideal doesn’t surprise me but it will never function in the real world. Any totalitarian effort to radically change human nature and society is going to have to get very brutal very fast. You posters don’t know what FEAR is. \*\* I agree completely with your part about totalitarianism. Communism doesn’t involve that. Communist ideals could and have functioned in the real world to a point. What has stopped them in the past is gross violence against the movements by Capitalists. If a revolution can spread fast enough we can overcome this. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I would like to think we are all part of a civilized and quiet global agreement on Communism. Nobody wants a bloodbath. There are still hundreds of millions of good communists alive on the planet. Their system has crashed and burned. They’ve had more than eighty years - four generations? - and nothing remotely resembling a decent healthy society has ever emerged under communism. To compare the social successes and progress of the Western World in the 20th century to Communism is to weep. We are all going to kick back peacefully for a few more generations to let this grotesque political philosophy fade away. \*\* Sorry, it’s not going to fade away. Communism is the inevitable result of Capitalism. As long as capitalism exists, communists will exist, attempting to overthrow it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The world will experience iron-fisted dictatorships again as madmen gain political power and try and force their vision on the people but one-man-rule is fading slowly off the planet. \*\* No it’s not. Dictatorships are alive and well. As long as Capitalism exists, so shall dictatorships. > [@](#): > > \*\* > My wife is calling. She wants me to go putter around on the renovations to our house. We own it, it’s ours, we worked hard for it, no police can enter without a warrant EVER. We live in peace and comfort and sometimes we treat ourselves with a taste of luxury. Nobody we know has ever disappeared for a political crime. > > A man in Russia was deported to Siberia because the local chief of police was “reasonably sure the man had contemplated a criminal act”. > > Read, read, read. > \*\* I agree. Read up on COINTELPRO. They most certainly entered people’s houses without warrants. The Government is constantly eroding our rights. Hell, they’re trying to take away the Miranda ruling. Nobody I know personally has disappeared either, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen * * * history repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce - Karl Marx [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-wrong-with-communism/18114.md?page=4)