So, what's wrong with communism?

Not to take away from your post, The Ryan, which I thought was pretty well-reasoned, but I’ve gotta say this. I’ve seen this line of reasoning applied to arguments on both sides of the ideological spectrum–some gun control advocates, for example, point to earlier drafts of the Second Amendment and say, “See? This is what the Framers meant!” Actually, gun control opponents do the same thing…which is why I’m bringing this up.

If there was earlier language in a document which says one thing, and the finished product has slightly different language, this should not be taken as evidence that the earlier language was what was meant all along. They changed it for a reason. If the Framers had meant, “life, liberty, and property,” they would have put “life, liberty, and property”–that it was apparently considered and rejected seems to weaken the argument that the Framers considered property a basic human right, rather than strengthen it.

That being said, it’s clear from reading the Federalist papers–detailed explications of the intents of Madison, Hamilton, and Jay in constructing the government–that the right to property was seen as extremely important, so the point of your post still pretty much stands. I just don’t think you can use language of earlier drafts to make your case.

I’m a utopian-communist.I support the ideas behind communisum but not the totalitarianisim. I beleve that totalitarianism was used to keep the greedy away from power. Lenin was the best ruler Russia has ever had, but he died and left a power vacuum. I have to agree that the reason for anti-communisum was the Church. In 50’s America if you wern’t christian you were shunned.


History is on our side we will bury you -Nikita Kruschev

Where did you dig up that crap? The state owns everything so no one has free speech? You can’t have a legitimate government without private property? The idea that the State owns all citizens is equally silly.
Do yourself a favor. Go read the Communist Mannifesto. Then we can talk.


It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality

This is a very profound question which does not recieve the attention it should. The reason that is so is because it scares the hell out of the capitalist ruling class.

There has never been any communist society since the primitive communism which existed prior to the slave system, the system of the first civilizations which arose in Mesapotamia many millenia ago.

There have been socialist societies led by a communist party, which is not the same thing. No ruling communist party has ever claimed that their society is communist. They have always claimed that such a society is will exist only in the future.

Marxist-Leninists have developed the theory of scientific socialism. It is not possible here to get into it in detail here, but briefly they see all of history as the history of class struggle. Slave vs. Masters; Feudal lords vs. serfs; and finally, Capitalist vs. the working class, also known as the proletariat. No one can understand this thinking without reading Marx’s Capital and Lenin’s Imperialism, amoung other works.

The socialism which has existed to this day has always been distorted by the need to become a garrison state to defend itself against hostile capitalism, of which the cold war is the prime, but not only, example. Look at Cuba, which has made tremendous social progress, but cannot be a democracy because it has been forced to defend itself in a war declared by the US fourty years ago. It has been on a permanent war footing, as was the Soviet Union from 1917 until its demise in 1991.

Stalinism was an extreme distortion caused by this undeclared war. You would have to know the history in detail. This history is not generally available to the average person, as it has been suppressed.

This lack of democracy is used by capitalist propagandists as “proof” of the undemocratic nature of socialism. Neat.

In this country, it is a fact that the “middle class” owes its very existance to the work of the Communist Party which was the main force in organizing the Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) in the thirties and fourties. This made it possible for people to achieve a standard of living unimaginable in the past. Very few people know this, but knowledgeable labor leaders are aware of it.

The Communist Party was the main force behind the civil rights movement. People don’t know this, either. There was a time when the NAACP was attacked as “communist” with good reason as WEB DuBois, who was instrumental in its founding, became a member of the Party.

There is much more, of course. Read the above mentioned works. Go to the Communist Party’s website to find out what it is about. Makes sense. Same as if you want to find out about fascism. There are many racist and white supremicist sites on the Web. The Web is a virtual library. There is no need to be ignorant. The SDMB is proof of that.


The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it. (Karl Marx, 1845)

Two great books about Communists and anti-racist action in the thirties, including some of the stupid mistakes they made are Hammer and Hoe by Robin Kelley andCommunists in Harlem During the Depression by Mark Naison recomended reading for anyone who wants more info on the subject.


It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality

Do you think that people do the crappy jobs in a capitalist country because those jobs pay more?
Peace,
mangeorge

Teach your kids to bungee jump.
One them might have to cross a bridge someday.

Gadarene

You misunderstood my point. I wasn’t just showing that Communism is contrary to the Constitution; I was showing that Communism is contrary to the principles underlying the Constitution. The fact that Jefferson thought property wsa an inalienable right is a manisfestation of the fact that property rights are linked to all other rights, rather than a proof of this.

Threll:

As I showed, communism necessitates totalitarianism.

oldscratch

I quite clearly showed what my reasoning is.

All forms of speech require private property. How can you possibly disagree with that? Can you name a form of speech that doesn’t require access to property rights?

Nope. To deny people the fruits of their labor is theft. While capitalism may “exploit” workers and take some of what the proletariat makes, in Communism the State takes everything.

That conclusion is the logical result of two premises, which I quite clearly laid out:

  1. In Communism, the State owns all means of production.
  2. Citizens are a means of production.

If you which to challenge one or both of these premises, then do so. Just calling my conclusion “silly” isn’t an argument.

galen

Oh, give me a break. Communism quite explicitly states that it is dedicated to the overthrow of all Capitalist governments. The wars that Communist countries have had to fight have all been offensive, rather than defensive. Even WWII started out as a war of aggression on the part of the USSR. There was no “need to become a garrison state to defend itself against hostile capitalism”. In the entire history of the Soviet Union, from the very moment it was recognized, not a single Capitalist country has invaded (and no, I don’t consider Nazism to be a form of Capitalism). The Soviet Union, on the other hand, has repeatedly invaded other countries. It was a “garrison state” because it chose to be. And Cuba brought the “war” (and calling the refusal to trade with someone “war” is really stretching the meaning of “war”) upon itself by the outright theft of American property.

Considering the fact that Marx recognized the existence of the middle class before he wrote the Manifesto, it seems pretty clear to me that it wasn’t created by Communism.

“The main” force? I don’t think so. Were they helpful in the civil rights movement? Yes. So was, as I recall, Rev. Phelps. Doesn’t make either of them right.

“What’s wrong with communism?”

Other than it’s oppressive, dehumanizing and has utterly failed everywhere it’s been tried, nothing is ‘wrong’ with communism.

Communism is a disgusting and morally repugnant philosophy that advocates the imposition of a totalitarian government, genocide, and the destruction of the individual.

Imposition of a totalitarian system is a cornerstone of Communism; the major step involved in getting to the utopian bit is the imposition of the ‘Dictatorship of the Proletariat’. They don’t even mince words, they call it a dictatorship. And it’s quite clear that this IS supposed to be a totalitarian government. Ironically, there’s no method given for getting rid of the totalitarian government; according to the manifesto, it will just fade away of it’s own accord and usher in an era where everything works fine. In actuality, people get fed up with the dictatorship long before it fades away, and switch to less totalitarian forms of government that involve capitalism and private property.

Communism also advocates large-scale genocide; part of the job that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat (and the revolution leading up to it) is supposed to do is to kill all of the people opposed to Communism. Liquidate the bourgieouise, the intelligencia, and all of those other undesirables. The only real difference between Communism and Nazism on the subject of genocide is that Communism advocates slaughtering people based on class, while Nazism advocates slaughtering people based on race.

Under a communist system, the individual person has no rights. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” In other words, if your best ability is at engineering, but you hate engineering, you still have to stick it out as an engineer rather than take another career path, as that wouldn’t be giving ‘according to your ability’. I wonder how many of the supporters of Communism (who tend to be artist-types or university-professor-types) would like to find out that their ‘ability’ was determined to be shoveling shit on a farm or working as a garbageman. I also wonder how many vegitarian communists would like to find out that their best ability was determined to be working at a slaughterhouse.

And ‘to each according to his needs’ is much darker than the blind herd of Communist followers is willing to acknowledge; a person doesn’t NEED good tasting food, a nutritios oatmeal-like slop can do the job. You don’t NEED a private dwelling for your family, you can live in the communual barracks. You don’t NEED a nice-looking place to live, drab grey walls will keep the wind off of you. You don’t NEED to be cured of that painful back ache, you can just endure the pain and keep working for the good of the community. You don’t NEED a computer for posting to message boards, you can talk to people at your local committee meetings.

And since private property is theft under the Communist system, you can’t own things like a family album, a set of favorite clothes, or even a plate of food. If the community needs kindling for a fire, scratch those baby pictures goodbye. When your clothes are sent in to the communual washing facility, you can’t expect to get them back. Man, it sure is good not to be able to commit that ‘theft’ of private property? Imagine if you did something evil like owning your own computer, or a favorite book or something. That would be horrible!

And remember, these things are from the Communist Manifesto, not based on the actions of the various Communist governments (although anyone foolish enough not to learn from such obvious and available experience really should do the world a favor and never vote). Coming out in support of Communism is just as bad as coming out in support of Nazism, and it’s really sad that the sick supporters of Communism are not treated with the same contempt the sick supporters of Nazism are.

Without totalitarianism, you don’t have Communism. Read the Communist Manifesto so that you at least have some idea of the monstrosity you lend your support to. I till find it rather disgusting that you despise individual liberty enough to claim to support a Communistic system, but you’re stated viewpoint doesn’t have anything to do with Communism.

If you’re just looking at the end state of Communism and claiming that it would work if people were perfect, you’re just being silly. You might as well support enlightened despotism, as that way you only have to have one perfect person to make the sytem work.

I don’t see how you can say that; Lennin’s biggest accomplishment was slaughtering a lot of Russians, but if that’s your criteria for leadership, Uncle Joe takes the cake. The enforced famines, mass slaughters of undesirables, etc. were all started under Lennin, although continued with vigor by Stalin.

Nothing that existed prior to the industrial revolution can be any kind of Communism, as Communism can only be come from an industrialized, capitalistic state. Read the Communist Manifesto if you don’t believe me.


Kevin Allegood,

“At least one could get something through Trotsky’s skull.”

  • Joseph Michael Bay

Ah… so we should “Love the communist, hate the communism” :wink:

What do you mean by that?


“Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer”

Other than the moral reasons given above, there are very good practical and theoretical reasons why communism will NOT work.

The main reason is that the functioning of a large economy is chaotic. Central command has never worked, and never will, for fundamental technical reasons. It has nothing at all to do with how smart the leaders are, or how willing to put up with commands the people are. The fact is that small inputs made from the top can result in radical, unforseen changes in economic output. Central commands to fix those problems lead to others.

Capitalist systems have a negative feedback system that keeps them stable and efficient. Changes in economic structure are reflected almost instantly in the price system, which causes small, rapid changes to bring the system back into equilibrium. If the market creates a demand for more pencils, the price of pencils goes up. This stimulates production. The increased production raises the price of the raw materials to make pencils, which increases the prices of those. In the meantime, the price of alternatives to the pencil goes down, which causes production to slow.

Compare this to a Central government controlling prices and deciding what should be made. The government decides they need more pencils. But they don’t increase the harvesting of wood. So for a while more pencils are made, but soon the shortage of wood causes factories to run into trouble. In the meantime, there is a glut in the alternatives. So the government decrees that production on those slow down. But now there are no pencils because of the wood shortage, and no alternatives. So now you have lineups for pencils, and government rations. So now they finally figure out that they need to harvest more wood, so they divert production from something else into wood harvest. But now there are shortages in whatever industry they diverted resources from… it goes on and on. The ripples can effect hundreds of different products, in unforseen ways. Forced production of more pencils can lead to shortages of bath towels due to strange interactions in the economy, and no central power can control it.

That’s why one of the hallmarks of every communist country is alternating gluts and shortages of products, and lower overall economic efficiency.

In practical terms there are problems with motivation of the workforce, poor allocation of resources, political infighting and power struggles, etc. But even if everyone loves everyone else and lives in perfect harmony the system will still fail.

[quote]
Originally posted by The Ryan:
**

It’s late andI need to go to bed. However, you’re ignorance annoys me. So I will point out one example of you being wrong, tomorrow I will follow up with the rest. THE USA INVADED THE SOVIET UNION!!! GERMANY(pre nazi) INVADED THE SOVIET UNION!!! In case you have any misunderstanding , these all happened before WW2. I will refute the rest of your arguments tomorrow. Until then, have a pleasent evening.


It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality

I work with a woman who left cuba as casto took over and she told me stories of civilians being killed in the streets. and even adults having to adhear to a curfew. when the commies took over they raided everyone’s house and took all property of any value including burial plots and it became property of the state.

having to buy things off the black market because the state rations stypiens rarely were enough to feed her family.
They have military on every corner.
All I can say is if that’s utopia you can have it.

You left out “mummification,” “momentum” and “mammaries.”

Wait a minute. “Mammaries”? Morally wrong? That is a HUGE flaw in your theory my friend!

As for the OP, Communism is wrong because it destroys incentive. What is my incentive, in a Communist world, to work harder? I won’t get any more pay. What is my incentive to create a better widget? I won’t get to profit from it.

Sorry. I spend a lot of time debating with fundamental Christians, and one of their favorite sayings is “Love the sinner, hate the sin.”

If having 3 m’s is morally wrong, but having 2 is okay (e.g. m&m’s, yum!) then we should “love the communist, hate the communism.” :slight_smile:

(Okay, I’m weird)

Getting away from the rants…

The problem is that if you had a whole bunch of the right people, it wouldn’t much matter what the property relations were.

Indeed, since much information required for an economy/ a society to run reasonably well is in essence personal information, a society comprised of community-minded persons would do better under capitalism than without private property.

The degree to which a particular system may encourage cooperative or narrowly selfish behaviour may vary, but not that much. The effect of hugely centralising power, then, is always going to be ugly.

The Ryan said:

Well, oldscratch doesn’t seem to have woken up yet, so I’ll go ahead and take you to task for him.

Immediately after the Bolsheviks took power in 1917, the Allied powers made plans to invade Russia in order to restore the 'Whites" (the liberal constitutionalists) to power in order to A) return Russia to the fray against Germany and B) stamp out the Communists before they had a chance to actually start up a working government and possibly give hope to the Communist insurgents across Europe. The invasion didn’t really start until 1918, and German troops eventually joined the fight on the side of the Whites (in order to keep the Communist revolution from spreading into Germany).

The end result was a long civil war, with Americans, Germans, French, Austrian and White Russian troops fighting against the Bolshevik government. Eventually, the Reds defeated the Whites, and the Allies decided to give up hope for overthrowing the Communist government.

But it was an invasion, and it was an allied attempt by capitalist government actually at war with each other to stomp out Communism before it even had a chance to start.

Feel free to squirm out of that by stating that “Well, they weren’t a recognized government, which is what I meant”; but the point is that the Russian Civil War proved to a lot of Communists that the capitalist countries were just waiting for a moment of weakness on the part of the Soviet Union, and then, WHAM! another invasion to overthrow them.

Hope I didn’t steal your thunder, oldscratch.


JMCJ

“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame

Two incentives:
[ul][li]You know you’re part of a great system and you have to do your part to keep it going.[/li][li]If you don’t do your work, you’ll be ‘taken care of’ soon enough…[/ul][/li]

“Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer”