# So what's your opinion of Andrew Lloyd Webber **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 8, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076 "2010-09-08T17:34:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/41 "2010-09-08T22:20:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Sampiro](#): > > > > When I first listened to Phantom I even interpreted the line > > > > to mean he was impotent due to the same (accident or birth defect or radiation or WTFever) caused his scars. I had a mini-debate with friends at the time who believed it just meant that because of his ugliness he couldn’t get a woman, though I pointed out that if you read the biographies of most bonafide sideshow ‘freaks’ many if not most of them were married. > > Still not sure- your take? > > Sampiro, I also took it that the Phantom was impotent, though it can also be read as just that he was too repellent for any woman to have sex with. > > That said, I don’t see how to interpet Christine’s lines just before: > > _Have you gorged yourself at last with your lust for blood? > Am I now to be prey to your lust for flesh?_ > > As anything other than “Are you about to force yourself on me?” > > And the Phantom’s response only makes sense if they’ve never had sex, consensual or non-consensual, before. I’ve always taken those lines to mean that while the Phantom is physically able to have sex, he has never been able to get close enough to a women for this to happen. I’ve never thought it meant he was impotent. I don’t think that view really fits in with how else the character is portrayed. MOTN is supposed to be the Phantom seducing Christine, it is filled with sensuality and very sexualized. Gillian Lynne, the choreographer, explicitly created the scene to be that way, and various actors have taken it even further in their portrayals. If Christine had not fainted at the end, I do think his intentions were for her to go to bed with him. And yes, Christine’s line is basically asking if he is going to rape her. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/42 "2010-09-08T22:31:28Z")
[This is what I think of him.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoVccXgAy6U) I’m actually just kidding. As I’ve said many times in these recent ALW conversations, I do like him. But that doesn’t make this video any less funny. Or true. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/43 "2010-09-08T22:33:14Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom] > > Christine goes to find the Phantom on the night before her wedding to Raoul (after the events of **Phantom**.) She finds him in hiding (with the help of Mme Giry) and they have sex. Wild passionate sex. Several times. Seriously. It’s in the lyrics. After they are done, later that night the Phantom leaves while Christine is still asleep because he is ashamed. (😕 ) Christine wakes up, marries Raoul, and 9 months later has little Gustave. So she goes to him after he has murdered, in cold blood, Fouquet, Piangi, and however many were killed by his hijinks with chandeliers and various lassos and what not, after he has tried to kill Raoul and forced her to choose between a life as his prisoner or Raoul’s death, and… before she’s about to become a countess to a guy who loves her and can even be seen in public with her and hasn’t left a trail of corpses through the Paris theater district, she goes to see her former murdering kidnapper… Okay, Raoul needs to flat out Robert Blake that bint. [/QUOTE] Yes. Although, in \*\*Phantom \*\*the audience is \*supposed \*to feel enraptured by the Phantom. Through his voice and way he moves, he cuts a very romantic sensual figure. If he was portrayed as simply a horrible, unspeakably evil person with no redeeming qualities, there’d be no real conflict to the story and I don’t believe the show would have become the massive worldwide success that is has. Of course, we also know that he is a highly unstable murderer and that Christine choosing to stay with him just is not possible and would not work. Which is why the ending to \*\*Phantom \*\*works so well, and why the plot of the sequel is garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/44 "2010-09-08T22:38:03Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Sampiro, I also took it that the Phantom was impotent, though it can also be read as just that he was too repellent for any woman to have sex with. > > > > That said, I don’t see how to interpet Christine’s lines just before: > > > > _Have you gorged yourself at last with your lust for blood? > > Am I now to be prey to your lust for flesh?_ > > > > As anything other than “Are you about to force yourself on me?” > > > > And the Phantom’s response only makes sense if they’ve never had sex, consensual or non-consensual, before. > > I’ve always taken those lines to mean that while the Phantom is physically able to have sex, he has never been able to get close enough to a women for this to happen. I’ve never thought it meant he was impotent. I don’t think that view really fits in with how else the character is portrayed. MOTN is supposed to be the Phantom seducing Christine, it is filled with sensuality and very sexualized. Gillian Lynne, the choreographer, explicitly created the scene to be that way, and various actors have taken it even further in their portrayals. If Christine had not fainted at the end, I do think his intentions were for her to go to bed with him. > > And yes, Christine’s line is basically asking if he is going to rape her. Christine’s cry at the end of MotN is pretty orgasmic; I can imagine them having sex in that scene, if they’re hidden from view. But I can’t imagine Raoul not putting two and two together if that was their only time. The dates just don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/45 "2010-09-08T22:49:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Christine’s cry at the end of MotN is pretty orgasmic; I can imagine them having sex in that scene, if they’re hidden from view. But I can’t imagine Raoul not putting two and two together if that was their only time. The dates just don’t work. Oh, sorry I think I may have been unclear. They don’t actually have sex after MOTN, the text is pretty explicit about that. I just meant that I think that would have been where the scene was leading if she hadn’t fainted. At least as far as the events up til the end of **Phantom of the Opera** , the Phantom is still a virgin. I posted how the issue of having a son in the sequel was resolved in a spoiler a few posts up. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/46 "2010-09-08T23:16:53Z")
I’ve heard songs from several of his shows, but I was never interested enough to see a whole show. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/47 "2010-09-08T23:21:18Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Christine’s cry at the end of MotN is pretty orgasmic; I can imagine them having sex in that scene, if they’re hidden from view. But I can’t imagine Raoul not putting two and two together if that was their only time. The dates just don’t work. > > Oh, sorry I think I may have been unclear. They don’t actually have sex after MOTN, the text is pretty explicit about that. I just meant that I think that would have been where the scene was leading if she hadn’t fainted. At least as far as the events up til the end of **Phantom of the Opera** , the Phantom is still a virgin. I posted how the issue of having a son in the sequel was resolved in a spoiler a few posts up. You weren’t unclear. I was just providing a less … stupid … explanation than the fanwank you relayed. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/48 "2010-09-08T23:27:25Z")
In Christine’s defense, **Sampiro** , I don’t think the musical has her torn between Raoul and the Phantom – she’s not thinking “I wish I could quit you.” She’s thinking, “This poor sick bastard has nothing and he’s murdered all these people and yet he loves me and has helped me… Am I guilty? Am I supposed to be grateful? How can I not feel pity for what this creature has endured in his life, even as I hate him for what he’s put everyone through?” Basically she’s seriously fucked up, torn between guilt and sympthy and gratitude and probably some love in there too (left over from the years he spent as pretending to be a spirit sent by her father). This is explicit in the lyrics when Raoul’s come up with the plan to set her up as bait to kill the Phantom. "Twisted every way, what answer can I give?/Am I to risk my life to win the chance to live?/Can I betray the man who once inspired my voice?/Do I become his prey?/Do I have any choice?/He kills without a thought/He murders all that’s good/I know I can’t refuse/And yet, I wish I could/Oh god, if I agree, what horrors wait for me/In this, the Phantom’s opera… " All bets are off when it comes to the sequel, however. The story’s a laughable travesty, and _this_ is an example of an egregiously cynical attempt to cash in on the (forgive me) “Phandom.” (Bluuurgh!) Not that POTO was genius or anything, but it had a lot of strengths and some beautiful music, cannily produced. I think there was a way to do a sequel that didn’t involve spitting all over a classic. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/49 "2010-09-08T23:38:44Z")
_Never mind…_ ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/50 "2010-09-09T00:33:04Z")
> [@choie](#): > > In Christine’s defense, **Sampiro** , I don’t think the musical has her torn between Raoul and the Phantom – she’s not thinking “I wish I could quit you.” She’s thinking, “This poor sick bastard has nothing and he’s murdered all these people and yet he loves me and has helped me… Am I guilty? Am I supposed to be grateful? How can I not feel pity for what this creature has endured in his life, even as I hate him for what he’s put everyone through?” True, but if the Phantom had worn baggy pants and a torn sweater and looked less like Michael Crawford/Gerard Butler and more like Squiggy or Andy Dick she’d have probably knifed him before he got her to the mirror or clubbed him with a candleholder as soon as she came too in his lair. The sequel only works as a nightmare, though I’m not sure who’s having it. Or perhaps they could bring in an Elvis impersonator and Tyler Perry as M’dea to make it a _Springtime for Hitler_ absurdist masterpiece. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/51 "2010-09-09T00:40:16Z")
With the exception of Fiddler on the Roof and that episode of BTVS, I hate all musicals. His haven’t struck me as any better or worse than others I’ve had to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/52 "2010-09-09T00:41:37Z")
Not everyone in New York would pay to see Andrew Lloyd Weber. May his trousers fall down as he bows to the Queen and the Crown. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/53 "2010-09-09T00:46:52Z")
Jesus Christ Superstar may be my favorite movie ever. Ever. [This cat right here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDzxn66W3uM)\* is the coolest, sexiest brotha on the planet (R.I.P). And that song is sung often by me at the top of my lungs with equal passion and expression! People often look at me like I’m crazy. And don’t get me started on What’s The Buzz? I guess I liked Evita ok, too. Never saw the play. Just the film with Madonna. \*you tube vid ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/54 "2010-09-09T01:28:24Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > With the exception of Fiddler on the Roof and that episode of BTVS, I hate all musicals. His haven’t struck me as any better or worse than others I’ve had to watch. Have you seen the 1986 “Little Shop of Horrors”? Because you should if you liked the Buffy thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/55 "2010-09-09T01:29:55Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > [This cat right here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDzxn66W3uM)\* is the coolest, sexiest brotha on the planet (R.I.P). And that song is sung often by me at the top of my lungs with equal passion and expression! People often look at me like I’m crazy. And don’t get me started on What’s The Buzz? I may not sing it every day but living where I do gives ample excuses for “\*You’ve \*begun to matter more/Than the things you say” and “All your followers are blind!/Too much heaven on their minds” to reverberate in my thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/56 "2010-09-09T02:06:22Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > > [@elfkin477](#): > > > > With the exception of Fiddler on the Roof and that episode of BTVS, I hate all musicals. His haven’t struck me as any better or worse than others I’ve had to watch. > > Have you seen the 1986 “Little Shop of Horrors”? Because you should if you liked the Buffy thing. Oh, all right. Make that “all serious musicals” rather than simply musicals. I didn’t _love_ LSoH, Grease, or RHPS, but I didn’t hate them either. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/57 "2010-09-09T06:10:24Z")
One great song in each show; the rest of it, pure dreck. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/58 "2010-09-09T06:10:27Z")
ALW is a hack, no doubt. I do like _Superstar_ ALW totally ripped off Pink Floyd’s _Echoes_ for one of _Phantom’s_ themes, (almost note for note). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/59 "2010-09-09T06:27:50Z")
> [@lawoot](#): > > ALW is a hack, no doubt. > > I do like _Superstar_ > > ALW totally ripped off Pink Floyd’s _Echoes_ for one of _Phantom’s_ themes, (almost note for note). Hmmm. [Damn if he didn’t](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S3fpgrZ9ys). (I’m not a Pink Floyd fan so I wasn’t familiar with Echoes.) [A similar vid](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5wwi4ahLc&feature=related) with Echoes and other musical pieces. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076/60 "2010-09-09T06:38:35Z")
Kyla… i LOVED him when I was a teenager too…Now it’s Sondheim ALL the way. Then again there are Sondhiems that I’m not exactly fond of (Sunday in the Park with George, Company.) but there are ALW that I like…He really is hit or miss…and I mean he can’t even COMPARE with Stephen King. I think ALW will be one of those popular but forgotten in thirty years composers. My grandkids will be all " who the eff was THAT?" the way we’re " Who the eff was THAT?" to mentions of people like Gary Cooper [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whats-your-opinion-of-andrew-lloyd-webber/553076.md?page=4)