# So whence do Sovereign Citizens come from, exactly ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252 "2016-01-05T18:36:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/1 "2016-01-05T18:36:06Z")
Not sure if this should be in GD or GQ, but since this thread is inspired by current events, and those always go down the tubes, I figured I might as well drop it here. Anyway, with the latest Bundy things, I’ve been wondering about the sovereign citizen… movement ? Ideology ? Whichever. And who started it all. It strikes me that many of these guys reiterate strikingly similar (albeit, um, nuts) opinions ; such as “the federal government is a myth/doesn’t have any authority anywhere”, the gold fringe admiralty flag naval court thing, the notion that if you say the right magic legal words you can’t be prosecuted and/or the prosecution will automagically be invalid… they’re all crazy ideas of course, but they’re _suspiciously specific_ crazy ideas that have spread far and wide, which prompts me to believe there must have been a single origin point somewhere. Soooo… was there ? And if so, which was it ? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/2 "2016-01-05T18:46:01Z")
As usual, [wikipedia is a good place to start.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement). I just so happened to have looked that up this AM. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/3 "2016-01-05T18:48:59Z")
The Wiki articles on [Sovereign citizen movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement) and [Posse Comitatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_(organization)) give a good general outline. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/4 "2016-01-05T18:49:36Z")
The views on government and taxation ultimately derive from the Posse Comitatus movement, which was largely inspired by [William P. Gale](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lionel-rolfe/col-william-p-gale_b_5216834.html). Where Gale got the ideas is a bit murky. ETA: ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/5 "2016-01-05T19:12:11Z")
This is the best site, ever. [http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss1.html](http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss1.html) [http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss2.html#sovereign](http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss2.html#sovereign) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/6 "2016-01-05T19:31:29Z")
From the Wiki article: > [@](#): > > … In 2010, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) estimated that approximately 100,000 Americans were “hard-core sovereign believers,” with another 200,000 “just starting out …” > > … a [2014] survey of law-enforcement officials and agencies across the United States concluded that the movement was the single greatest threat to their communities, ranking above Islamic terrorists and jihadists. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/7 "2016-01-05T19:40:29Z")
The leading decision in Canada on this sort of stuff: Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571 (CanLII), \<[http://canlii.ca/t/fsvjq](http://canlii.ca/t/fsvjq)\>. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/8 "2016-01-05T19:44:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > From the Wiki article: > > :eek: Yep if you go through this link I posted in another thread and look at the ones that mention “tax protester”, “Aryan”, “anti-government” or “Christian Identity” those were them. [http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/Right-Wing-Plots-Acts-Conspiracies-1995-2015.pdf](http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combating-hate/Right-Wing-Plots-Acts-Conspiracies-1995-2015.pdf) Everyone from Timothy McVeigh to The Bundys. IMHO it is really just a form of KKK-light, none of the ceremony but all of the hate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/9 "2016-01-05T19:51:51Z")
Not exactly. It all comes from white supremacist groups but the tax stuff has taken on a life of its own. There was a black woman convicted of tax evasion in New York after her sovereign arguments were tossed out recently. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/10 "2016-01-05T19:53:26Z")
The Meads v Meads decision is really a much better summation of the phenomenon than “It’s all KKK light,” which it really isn’t. What it is, really, is a series of related scams that prey upon weak-minded people. “Say the magic words and you won’t have to pay taxes” is not all that dissimilar from “Eat acai berries and you won’t gain weight” and every other simplistic solve-your-life-for-$500 thing out there. Behind every “soverign citizen” or “Freeman on the land” is someone who extracted at least the cost of a book or a seminar to tell them all about it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/11 "2016-01-05T20:14:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Meads v Meads decision is really a much better summation of the phenomenon than “It’s all KKK light,” which it really isn’t. > > What it is, really, is a series of related scams that prey upon weak-minded people. “Say the magic words and you won’t have to pay taxes” is not all that dissimilar from “Eat acai berries and you won’t gain weight” and every other simplistic solve-your-life-for-$500 thing out there. Behind every “soverign citizen” or “Freeman on the land” is someone who extracted at least the cost of a book or a seminar to tell them all about it. Yes, altho there are a few shreds of decent legal arguments here and there, mostly this is what all the arguments break down to- _"Say the magic words_ and you won’t have to follow certain laws." and that _somehow_, a “common sense reading” of the Constitution (by someone with no common sense) rules out over a SCOTUS ruling. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/12 "2016-01-05T20:15:13Z")
RationalWiki has some pretty good pages on [Sovereign citizen](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen), [Freeman on the land](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman-on-the-land), [Posse Comitatus,](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_(organization)) [Militia movement](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Militia_movement), and [Pseudolaw](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pseudolaw). > [@](#): > > **Sovereign citizens** typically believe that there are two types of citizens: natural citizens and 14th Amendment citizens. Based on idiosyncratic readings of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, they believe that natural citizens are citizens of the United States by virtue of having been born in one of the 50 states, not including the District of Columbia, having renounced his US federal citizenship and “contracts” (a term of art used exclusively by sovereign citizens in this context), and filed a “quiet title”. Actions to quiet title always relate to disputes about the ownership of real property and certain titled chattels, so the notion of quieting title to a human being is unknown to the law (or, well, it has been since 1865). Sovereign citizens believe that natural citizens are not subject to any United States federal law, including being subject to the jurisdiction of federal courts, but are subject to natural law and common law. By contrast, 14th Amendment citizens are subject to federal and common law, but can become sovereign citizens by taking the same action as sovereign citizens. > > In the United States, the sovereign citizen movement is closely related to the Posse Comitatus and freemen on the land movements, and there is substantial overlap between these movements and militia movements. > > Many sovereign citizens believe that only white men have rights because only the Constitution and the Bill of Rights apply, not any subsequent amendments.[1] Thus, they believe the ratification of the 13th Amendment (abolishing slavery) is unconstitutional and of no effect. They may also believe that the 19th Amendment is unconstitutional, meaning women never gained suffrage and any election in which women vote is null and void.[2] ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/13 "2016-01-05T20:25:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not exactly. It all comes from white supremacist groups but the tax stuff has taken on a life of its own. There was a black woman convicted of tax evasion in New York after her sovereign arguments were tossed out recently. This is an exception and while people may try to use their arguments to commit tax evasion I am unaware of any bomb plots or violence committed by this subset of tax-protesters. I am intimately familiar with several of the incidents listed in my link and all were also closely tied to white supremacy. This may color my judgement so please point evidence that violent tax protestors are not, it is very possible I am wrong. E.G. I worked on a demolition project with Darwin Michael Gray and had to endure his off comments. I have had several debates with Richard Butler in Dennys in Cour d’Alene Idaho and I use to sit in the middle of Sherman Ave to block the Aryan nations parades. I have a best friend whom was at work the day the spokesman review was bombed. I was friends with the family that was shot at when their car backfired, which resulted in the Aryan Nations losing their compound in Hayden Lake. I have been in half a dozen in person arguments with Northwest Front members in seattle, calling them out when I see them in public. I use to set up a cardboard sign that said “Ask a friendly atheist” next to Evangelical churches and christian identity movements where I calmly answered and asked questions. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/14 "2016-01-05T20:36:31Z")
I think you misunderstand me. Christian Identity types are certainly violent. I’m just pointing out that the sovereign and tax protest movements have gone beyond their white supremacist origins. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/15 "2016-01-05T20:44:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you misunderstand me. Christian Identity types are certainly violent. I’m just pointing out that the sovereign and tax protest movements have gone beyond their white supremacist origins. tax protestors maybe, but any self identified “Sovereign Citizen” that does not realize the history and bases of the movement was racism and anti-Semitism is plain ignorant. But my comments were related to those that commit acts of violence. Are there any documented incidents of violence involving self described Sovereign Citizens or tax-protestors which were not also related to racism? People have a right to their nut ball ideas and I will fight for their right to have them but I will not tolerate violence through intimidation or action. In that context does your argument invalidate the point behind my post. I doubt that the local law enforcement concerns documented in the post that I responded to are really worried about passive believers either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/16 "2016-01-05T20:48:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > **So whence do Sovereign Citizens come from, exactly ?** Well, sometimes, when a Freeman on the Land and a Freewoman on the Land love each other very much, Natural Law comes into play . . . ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/17 "2016-01-05T20:49:25Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But my comments were related to those that commit acts of violence. Are there any documented incidents of violence involving self described Sovereign Citizens or tax-protestors which were not also related to racism? [2010 West Memphis police shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_West_Memphis_police_shootings) > [@](#): > > Two police officers in West Memphis, Arkansas were shot and killed during a traffic stop on May 20, 2010. Police identified and killed two suspects, identified as Jerry Kane, Jr., and his son, Joseph Kane. The two were later identified as members of the sovereign citizen movement. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/18 "2016-01-05T20:53:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, sometimes, when a Freeman on the Land and a Freewoman on the Land love each other very much, Natural Law comes into play . . . …and they create joinder with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/19 "2016-01-05T20:56:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > tax protestors maybe, but any self identified “Sovereign Citizen” that does not realize the history and bases of the movement was racism and anti-Semitism is plain ignorant. Well, yeah, but anyone who buys into sovcit nonsense _is_ plain ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/20 "2016-01-05T21:06:18Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The Wiki articles on [Sovereign citizen movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement) and [Posse Comitatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_(organization)) give a good general outline. One common denominator among these people is revealed in this quote from the wiki: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Posse members believe that there is no legitimate form of government above that of the county level and no higher law authority than the county sheriff.[6] If the sheriff refuses to carry out the will of the county’s citizens: “…he shall be removed by the Posse to the most populated intersection of streets in the township and at high noon be hung by the neck, the body remaining until sundown as an example to those who would subvert the law.” [/quote] There’s always a presupposition that the “will of the county’s citizens” is somehow unanimous–that everybody wants the same thing–that there is a default will of the people. This lends itself well to white nationalist (and other) ideologies which _a priori_ are predicated on an assumption of only one constituency being legitimate. Essentially, if the majority doesn’t choose what you want, you start to claim the decision isn’t legitimate. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252.md?page=2)