# So whence do Sovereign Citizens come from, exactly ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252 "2016-01-05T18:36:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/21 "2016-01-05T21:08:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Freeman on the land](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman-on-the-land) I will never NOT find the ‘Freeman Successes’ section of that page funny. I encourage everyone to review it. We’re avoiding the larger issue of where they come from. It’s not the book or white supremacist nonsense. It’s the same sort of feeling of powerlessness that inspires people to believe they know more medical stuff than their doctor or more legal stuff than their lawyer. The simple fact is that - for a goodly portion of American society - the fact of ‘experts’ or ‘trained professionals’ is inherently threatening. The acknowledgement that another might have greater knowledge/experience is an acknowledgement of powerlessness. For a subset of those who are truly powerless that’s unbearable and the idea that they can outwit/know more than/subvert with magic words or anti-vaxx or whatever is a means of asserting their own worth in the face of their apparent ignorance. It’s insecurity that drives a lot of this. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/22 "2016-01-05T21:11:13Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [2010 West Memphis police shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_West_Memphis_police_shootings) OK, so I will not always assume they are racists as there is no evidence in this case. But the fact that he charged for his tax fraud seminar “per man” and that wives and children were free indicates just a slight change flavor of bigotry and not a lack of it. I will still temper my claims in the future. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/23 "2016-01-05T21:15:07Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I will never NOT find the ‘Freeman Successes’ section of that page funny. I encourage everyone to review it. > > We’re avoiding the larger issue of where they come from. It’s not the book or white supremacist nonsense. It’s the same sort of feeling of powerlessness that inspires people to believe they know more medical stuff than their doctor or more legal stuff than their lawyer. > > The simple fact is that - for a goodly portion of American society - the fact of ‘experts’ or ‘trained professionals’ is inherently threatening. The acknowledgement that another might have greater knowledge/experience is an acknowledgement of powerlessness. For a subset of those who are truly powerless that’s unbearable and the idea that they can outwit/know more than/subvert with magic words or anti-vaxx or whatever is a means of asserting their own worth in the face of their apparent ignorance. > > It’s insecurity that drives a lot of this. Is it not possible that this insecurity is driven by their perceived loss of “rights” which is really a reduction in white and/or male privilege? We commonly see this when people make a claim of a “war on christians” which almost always is really due to an attempt to allow non-christians to exercise the same rights. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/24 "2016-01-05T21:18:38Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > OK, so I will not always assume they are racists as there is no evidence in this case. But the fact that he charged for his tax fraud seminar “per man” and that wives and children were free indicates just a slight change flavor of bigotry and not a lack of it. > > I will still temper my claims in the future. I will note that I cannot find evidence that they self identified as members of the sovereign citizen movement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/25 "2016-01-05T21:19:29Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > We’re avoiding the larger issue of where they come from. It’s not the book or white supremacist nonsense. It’s the same sort of feeling of powerlessness that inspires people to believe they know more medical stuff than their doctor or more legal stuff than their lawyer. Or perhaps it’s driven by the same loss-of-caste existential despair that [is killing off middle-aged white Americans](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=774700). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/26 "2016-01-05T21:34:45Z")
The Southern Poverty Law Center [has a good intro](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement). > [@](#): > > The movement is rooted in racism and anti-Semitism, though most sovereigns, many of whom are African American, are unaware of their beliefs’ origins. In the early 1980s, the sovereign citizens movement mostly attracted white supremacists and anti-Semites, mainly because sovereign theories originated in groups that saw Jews as working behind the scenes to manipulate financial institutions and control the government. Most early sovereigns, and some of those who are still on the scene, believed that being white was a prerequisite to becoming a sovereign citizen. They argued that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which guaranteed citizenship to African Americans and everyone else born on U.S. soil, also made black Americans permanently subject to federal and state governments, unlike themselves. > > **The Sovereign Belief System** > > The contemporary sovereign belief system is based on a decades-old conspiracy theory. At some point in history, sovereigns believe, the American government set up by the founding fathers — with a legal system the sovereigns refer to as “common law” — was secretly replaced by a new government system based on admiralty law, the law of the sea and international commerce. Under common law, or so they believe, the sovereigns would be free men. Under admiralty law, they are slaves, and secret government forces have a vested interest in keeping them that way. Some sovereigns believe this perfidious change occurred during the Civil War, while others blame the events of 1933, when the U.S. abandoned the gold standard. Either way, they stake their lives and livelihoods on the idea that judges around the country know all about this hidden government takeover but are denying the sovereigns’ motions and filings out of treasonous loyalty to hidden and malevolent government forces. > > Though this all sounds bizarre, the next layer of the argument becomes even more implausible. Since 1933, the U.S. dollar has been backed not by gold, but by the “full faith and credit” of the U.S. government (in fact, President Franklin D. Roosevelt ended private ownership of gold in large amounts in 1933; governments could still sell gold for dollars to the U.S. Treasury for a fixed amount after that, until that practice was ended by President Richard Nixon in 1971). According to sovereign “researchers,” this means that the government has pledged its citizenry as collateral, by selling their future earning capabilities to foreign investors, effectively enslaving all Americans. This sale, they claim, takes place at birth. When a baby is born in the U.S., a birth certificate is issued, and the hospital usually requires that the parents apply for a Social Security number at that time. Sovereigns say that the government then uses that birth certificate to set up a kind of corporate trust in the baby’s name — a secret Treasury account — which it funds with an amount ranging from $600,000 to $20 million, depending on the particular variant of the sovereign belief system. By setting up this account, every newborn’s rights are cleverly split between those held by the flesh-and-blood baby and the ones assigned to his or her corporate shell account. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/27 "2016-01-05T21:42:50Z")
To respond to both you and rat avatar at once I’ll say that I understand where you’re coming from. However, I think it’s facile to try and point it at racism as most racism comes from the same insecurity that drives this sort of movement. The underlying sense of powerlessness/helplessness works at a level beyond race and so forth to the underlying sense of worth of the individual involved. In a larger society - such as we inhabit, one beyond the tribal, essentially - each individual has to acknowledge their place inside the larger whole. That acknowledgment can be seen as destroying or shrinking the individual beyond what some find tolerable. Whether it’s the sense of loss of prestige, or the meaninglessness of one’s spot in a large corporate employer or whatever, one’s personal worth is seen as smaller than the whole. Most people get on with their lives with a certain level of angst and just move forward. But some look for a reason that they, themselves, have the worth they feel has been taken away. It often comes out in narcissism or some other form of foolishness. It may also - to be perfectly fair - be expressed in art or some other accomplishment such as building a business or whatever. Great works can come from that level of insecurity. But for some people it becomes a search for WHY they feel so small. That can become this sort of ‘magic words’ FotL nonsense. Note, how in each case given the FotL expresses his or her superior knowledge and power thereby overriding those who CLAIM power - judges, police and such - and putting them in their place. It’s sad, really. But lack of ultimate authority over one’s life is one of the prices we pay for a larger industrialized society. ---
**Author:** ![moldmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@moldmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moldmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/28 "2016-01-05T22:07:07Z")
There were a lot of these types where I grew up in the early 80’s(north central SD). Gordon Kahl shot a US Marshall just across the North Dakota border. I believe a lot of it can be traced to the farm crisis/recession of the time. People were losing farms and jobs and wanted to believe it was someone else’s fault. A high school classmate’s father went through all sorts of lawsuits trying to prevent the foreclosure of his farm. I didn’t pay much attention but he claimed something along the lines that since the money wasn’t backed by gold it wasn’t legal money and so somehow he didn’t have to pay the money back. Dad, who was very much a “if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing” type of person, only would say he had no problem with the money when he took the loan. The classmate was very embarassed by his Dad’s antics and ironically ended up a banker. ---
**Author:** ![moldmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@moldmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moldmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/29 "2016-01-05T22:10:48Z")
They aren’t all uneducated yokels either. A neighbor who is still big on this stuff was a range science professor before he came back to take over the family ranch. He is smart but crazy as a loon. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/30 "2016-01-05T23:00:17Z")
Okay if you want to try for a rational explanation, here’s the best you have. After the Civil War ended, there was a debate about what should be done with the seceding states. During the war, the general position of the United States government was that secession was illegal and therefore the southern states couldn’t have actually seceded and formed a new country - they were always part of the United States even if they were denying it. Ironically, when the war ended this position was adopted by the southern states. They said that if the official position of the United States government was that there had never been any secession then the southern states should resume their pre-1860 status with all the full rights as states that the northern states had. From a logical standpoint, this argument had the merit of consistency. But from a political viewpoint, it wasn’t going to happen. Nobody in the north was going to pretend the war hadn’t happened and let the same southerners who had promoted secession and war stay in power. So the seceding states where placed under federal military control. Congress, which did not allow southerners to take their seats, enacted the Fourteenth Amendment. And the southern states were essentially told that ratifying the Fourteenth Amendment would be a condition of being restored to full statehood. The southern states did so. Some people have therefore argued that the Fourteenth Amendment was not legally adopted. They raise three issues: that the Congress that enacted the Fourteenth Amendment was not a valid Congress because it had refused to seat southern representatives; that the southern states were forced to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment; and that three northern states which attempted to withdraw their ratifications were not allowed to do so. These people feel that the broad powers of the federal government which are derived from the Fourteenth Amendment are therefore illegal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/31 "2016-01-06T00:05:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > These people feel that the broad powers of the federal government which are derived from the Fourteenth Amendment are therefore illegal. But, the sovcit doctrines appear to go way, way beyond that. Remember that the movement (or phenomenon, really) has its roots in Posse Comitatus, an organization that denied the legitimacy of all government above the county level – a position no state of the Confederacy would have entertained for a moment. In their present iteration, the sovcits have developed a doctrine that confuses or conflates the common law (a historically contingent product of Anglo-American cultures and judicial systems) with natural law (an abstract philosophical effort to identify timeless and universal principles of ethics) – neither of which they understand very well. ISTM that their distorted version of common law is, like natural law or the laws of mathematics, presumed to be not a human creation at all strictly speaking, but something that was “out there” and discovered by humans. In short, it is **unalterable** by governments, legislatures, referenda, judges, diplomats, wars, revolutions or mass movements. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/32 "2016-01-06T00:50:11Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It’s sad, really. But lack of ultimate authority over one’s life is one of the prices we pay for a larger industrialized society. From The Grapes of Wrath: > [@](#): > > And that reminds me," the driver said, “you better get out soon. I’m going through the door-yard after dinner.” > > “You filled in the well this morning.” > > “I know. I had to keep the line straight. But I’m going through the dooryard after dinner. Got to keep the line straight. And — well, you know Joe Davis, my old man, so I’ll tell you this. I got orders whenever there’s a family not moved out — if I have an accident — you know, get too close and cave the house a little — well, I might get a couple of dollars. And my youngest kid never had no shoes yet.” > > “I built it with my hands. Straightened old nails to put the sheathing on. Rafters are wired to the stringers with bailing wire. It’s mine. I built it. You bump it down — I’ll be in the window with a rifle. You even come to close and I’ll pot you like a rabbit.” > > “It’s not me. There’s nothing I can do. I’ll lose my job if I don’t do it. And look — suppose you kill me? They’ll just hang you, but long before your hung there will be another guy on the tractor, and he’ll bump the house down. You’re not killing the right guy.” > > “That’s so,” the tenant said. “Who gave you orders? I’ll go after him. He’s the one to kill.” > > "You’re wrong. He got his orders from the bank. The bank told them: “Clear those people out or it’s your job.” > > “Well, there’s a president of the bank. There’s a Board of Directors. I’ll fill up the magazine of the rifle and go into the bank.” > > The driver said: "Fellow was telling me the bank gets orders from the East. The orders were: “Make the land show profit or we’ll close you up.” > > “But where does it stop? Who can we shoot? I don’t aim to starve to death before I kill the man that’s starving me.” > > “I don’t know. Maybe there’s nobody to shoot. Maybe the thing isn’t man at all. Maybe, like you said, the property’s doing it. Anyway I told you my orders.” > > “I got to figure,” the tenant said. “We all got to figure. There’s some way to stop this. It’s not like lightning or earthquakes. We’ve got a bad thing made by men, and by God that’s something we can change.” The tenant sat in his doorway, and the driver thundered his engines and started off, tracks falling and curving, harrows combing, and the phalli of the seeder slipping into the ground. Across the dooryard the tractor cut, and the hard, foot-beaten ground was seeded field, and the tractor cut through again; the uncut space was 10 feet wide. And back he came. The iron guard bit into the house corner, crumbled the wall and wrenched the little house from its foundations so that it fell sideways, crushed like a bug. And the driver was goggled and a rubber mask covered his nose and mouth. The tractor cut a straight line on, and the air and the ground vibrated with its thunder. The tenant man stared after it, his rifle in his hand. His wife beside him, and the quiet children behind. And all of them stared after the tractor ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/33 "2016-01-06T00:56:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > From The Grapes of Wrath: > > > [@](#): > > > > It’s not like lightning or earthquakes. We’ve got a bad thing made by men, and by God that’s something we can change. I wonder how many economists would agree/disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/34 "2016-01-06T02:01:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, the sovcit doctrines appear to go way, way beyond that. Remember that the movement (or phenomenon, really) has its roots in Posse Comitatus, an organization that denied the legitimacy of all government above the county level – a position no state of the Confederacy would have entertained for a moment. In their present iteration, the sovcits have developed a doctrine that confuses or conflates the common law (a historically contingent product of Anglo-American cultures and judicial systems) with natural law (an abstract philosophical effort to identify timeless and universal principles of ethics) – neither of which they understand very well. ISTM that their distorted version of common law is, like natural law or the laws of mathematics, presumed to be not a human creation at all strictly speaking, but something that was “out there” and discovered by humans. In short, it is **unalterable** by governments, legislatures, referenda, judges, diplomats, wars, revolutions or mass movements. I figure anyone can find the crazy parts of the movement. I was trying to present the possibly non-crazy part. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/35 "2016-01-06T02:38:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I figure anyone can find the crazy parts of the movement. I was trying to present the possibly non-crazy part. Denying the validity of the 14th Amendment is about as non-crazy as being a serious Jacobite in this day and age. And probably psychologically similar. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/36 "2016-01-06T03:12:02Z")
And just in case the Free(Wo)man on the Land managed to evade all the other snares and traps, the Ebil Gummint has the [Buck Act](http://www.rogermwilcox.com/debuck.html) to fall back on. Read it and weep. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/37 "2016-01-06T03:25:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Denying the validity of the 14th Amendment is about as non-crazy as being a serious Jacobite in this day and age. Actually I think the arguments for denying it Little Nemo states are fairly reasonable. Whats crazy is denying that the Federal government will enforce laws on you with as much physical force as necessary whether or not the 14 amendment is valid. Even if you’re right, they’ve got all the power and your magic words aren’t going to stop a bullet. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/38 "2016-01-07T08:36:01Z")
We just had some “right to travel” arrests here in paradise. A number of the same arguments: "The unidentified man who appeared in court Monday was wearing a white T-shirt with black block letters, all capitalized, saying, “GOOGLE LEGAL NAME FRAUD,” and told the court he doesn’t have a legal name. “I don’t have a name,” the man said. Turning to address the gallery, he added, “I just want to say that this whole system is fraudulent. It’s illegal to use the legal name that’s on the birth certificate. It’s a contract that was entered into by my parents and the Crown Corporation in London, which I was not privy to, yet I am held by, supposedly, right? Any time I would use that name, I would become a third-party interloper, fraud. That would mean the whole system itself is fraud.” :rolleyes::rolleyes:😕 [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/06/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-boulez-a-life.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/06/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-boulez-a-life.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/39 "2016-01-07T12:55:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This is the best site, ever. > > [http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss1.html](http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss1.html) > > [http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss2.html#sovereign](http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss2.html#sovereign) Wow, that is a migraine-inducing site, both for content and layout. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/40 "2016-01-07T13:09:36Z")
> [@GoodOmens](#): > > Wow, that is a migraine-inducing site, both for content and layout. Clearly a Jewish conspiracy to introduce crippling headaches and ocular disurbances to the Freemen on the Land. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252.md?page=3)