# So whence do Sovereign Citizens come from, exactly ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252 "2016-01-05T18:36:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/41 "2016-01-07T15:10:49Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Actually I think the arguments for denying it Little Nemo states are fairly reasonable. Not reasonable enough to convince the SCOTUS at any time in the past 150 years. These people are like Jacobites, seeking to “restore” a long-past order on the grounds it is the only “legitimate” order. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/42 "2016-01-07T15:15:15Z")
**Kobal2** , please forgive me. I am not judging, and I am not criticizing. But the OP title is bugging me just a little. “Whence” means “from what” or “from where.” The “from” is already inherent. So the clearer question would be “Whence do Sovereign Citizens come?” (Or, more informally, one might simply ask “Whence Sovereign Citizens?”) Again, really not trying to be rude. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/43 "2016-01-07T15:55:33Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **Kobal2** , please forgive me. I am not judging, and I am not criticizing. But the OP title is bugging me just a little. > > “Whence” means “from what” or “from where.” The “from” is already inherent. So the clearer question would be “Whence do Sovereign Citizens come?” (Or, more informally, one might simply ask “Whence Sovereign Citizens?”) > > Again, really not trying to be rude. 🙂 [Not to Godwinize, but . . .](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8fbrUjjivw) ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/44 "2016-01-07T16:24:31Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes:😕 > > [http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/06/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-boulez-a-life.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/01/06/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-boulez-a-life.html?_r=0) I’m confused too: “Pierre Boulez, Leading Figure Of Classical Music, Dies at 90” No mention of his views on US tax law 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/45 "2016-01-07T17:44:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The Sovereign Belief System > > The contemporary sovereign belief system is based on a decades-old conspiracy theory. At some point in history, sovereigns believe, the American government set up by the founding fathers — with a legal system the sovereigns refer to as “common law” — was secretly replaced by a new government system based on admiralty law, the law of the sea and international commerce. Under common law, or so they believe, the sovereigns would be free men. Under admiralty law, they are slaves, and secret government forces have a vested interest in keeping them that way. “We’ve secretly replaced these Sovereign Citizens’ system of _common law_ with _Folger’s Crystals_. Let’s see if they notice the difference…” ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/46 "2016-01-07T21:13:04Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > I’m confused too: > > “Pierre Boulez, Leading Figure Of Classical Music, Dies at 90” > > No mention of his views on US tax law 😃 :smack::smack:Just a little something left over in the cache from a death pool post.:smack::smack: should be: [Big Island police arrest 2 after protesting need for driver's license, car registration](http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/30881482/big-island-police-arrest-2-after-protesting-need-for-drivers-license-car-registration) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/47 "2016-01-07T21:43:54Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > :smack::smack:Just a little something left over in the cache from a death pool post.:smack::smack: > > should be: [Big Island police arrest 2 after protesting need for driver's license, car registration](http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/30881482/big-island-police-arrest-2-after-protesting-need-for-drivers-license-car-registration) > [@](#): > > The “Freedom Ride” rally was advertised on Craigslist; two groups – the Waimea Tribunal and Hawaii Common Law – billed themselves as its sponsors. In the Craiglist posting, organizers said cars are personal property and so should not have to be registered. Hmmm . . . apart from the “Common Law” thing, there’s nothing in the story to indicate the protesters are sovcits. But they probably are. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/48 "2016-01-07T22:03:28Z")
Well the _Hawaiian_ sovcitz/freeemen should be careful… after all if it’s a matter of “legitimacy” of government going back to the XIXth century they may have to hash it out with whoever’s the righful heirs to Liliuokalani 😛 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/49 "2016-01-07T22:26:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hmmm . . . apart from the “Common Law” thing, there’s nothing in the story to indicate the protesters are sovcits. But they probably are. This part, > [@](#): > > {…} cars are personal property and so should not have to be registered. {…} CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/50 "2016-01-07T23:31:29Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > This part,CMC fnord! “Cars are personal property and so should not have to be registered” sounds awfully sovcit, but could as easily be some kind of extreme libertarianism or just general dumbth. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252/51 "2016-01-08T00:53:59Z")
Don’t forget the sign IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS from back in the original post 38. Punctuation, spelling, capitalization are VERY important. I wouldn’t be surprised if these guys were also part of the “get Hawaii back from the white oppressor” crowd. Seems the annexation paperwork wasn’t in order back in the day. Of course when Kamehameha invaded Oahu from Maui with thousands of armed warriors and some whites; he didn’t even bother with paperwork. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whence-do-sovereign-citizens-come-from-exactly/742252.md?page=2)