# So Where Are the Fallujah Civilians? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 17, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305 "2004-11-17T18:05:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/1 "2004-11-17T18:05:17Z")
I post this in genuince confusion, aware that the next news report might render this all moot. But I don’t get it. Where are they? According to reports, they’ve been cut off from food and water for some time. Estimates of the actual numbers have been all over the map: started with about 300,000 of which “half” or “most” or some other indefinite estimate had left the city. Presumably, they must be near to desperate, some must be wounded, since shrapnel has little delicacy in target choices. We are advised that we are now in control of the city, save for pockets of messy democracy yet to be subdued. One would imagine the civilians would be rushing out their hiding places. Perhaps not to kiss the hands of Our Heroes, perhaps only to obtain desperately needed food and water. And if they had done, that would be on the news toot damn sweet, the propaganda value being what it is, images of grateful Fallujah denizens crying out their gratitude and approval for their liberators would be trumpted on Fox News most instanter. So where are they? If they are still hiding, why? Surely they can’t _all_ be dead and wounded, there are too many, perhaps 100,000, who knows? That is one dreadful prospect, there are others. If they are still hiding for fear of us, that sends a ghastly message. If they are hiding for fear of the insurgents, that sends another. Since we have subdued the insurgency, how come we have no idea how many civilians remain to be cared for? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is going on here? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/2 "2004-11-17T18:12:41Z")
They’ve been told to stay indoors until we have found a statue of Zarqawi to be pulled down. Jeez, I’m getting entirely too fucking sardonic. I don’t know the answers to any of your questions, and they’re all interesting questions. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/3 "2004-11-17T18:28:36Z")
If I’m remembering correctly, the city of Fallujah was warned by the military that an offensive was coming a few weeks in advance. That’s why the civilian counts have been so low and why Zarqawi is nowhere to be found. They knew in advance. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/4 "2004-11-17T18:32:49Z")
Try Googling “fallujah, ‘displaced persons’”. At the very least, you should find [this.](http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/cityzxsdisplaced14.htm) I haven’t read any of the links to any great depth; I just wanted to verify that I’m not crazy for thinking i saw a mention of displaced persons facilities in the _L A Times_ the other day. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/5 "2004-11-17T18:39:30Z")
I think you misread me, **Harbor**. I am well aware that there was ample warning, and that any number of civilians left the city, I imagine just about anyone who could leave, did so. We also had a discussion on the question of whether or not arrangements had been made to accept thousands of fleeing civilians, whether or not massive tent cities had been erected, food and water provided, etc. That issue being unresolved, I suspect the answer is “no”. We have no reliable estimate of the number of citizens who could not escape, who had no place to go, for instance. Some have said half, some have said most, clearly, no one actually knows. But even the comfort of “most” is scant comfort, out of a city of 3000,000, “most” still leaves some tens of thousands. If they see our troops as liberators, wouldn’t they come rushing out, especially as they have been woefully deprived of food, water, and medicine? Even if they hated our guts, they would still be driven out by sheer animal needs, would they not? I am not advancing a thesis here, I flat don’t know. But every conjecture I can come up with is more horrid and dreadful than the previous. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/6 "2004-11-17T18:50:34Z")
I hope they’re not all playing dead, because we know how that’ll end. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/7 "2004-11-17T18:54:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I think you misread me, **Harbor**. I am well aware that there was ample warning, and that any number of civilians left the city, I imagine just about anyone who could leave, did so. We also had a discussion on the question of whether or not arrangements had been made to accept thousands of fleeing civilians, whether or not massive tent cities had been erected, food and water provided, etc. That issue being unresolved, I suspect the answer is “no”. We have no reliable estimate of the number of citizens who could not escape, who had no place to go, for instance. Some have said half, some have said most, clearly, no one actually knows. But even the comfort of “most” is scant comfort, out of a city of 3000,000, “most” still leaves some tens of thousands. > > If they see our troops as liberators, wouldn’t they come rushing out, especially as they have been woefully deprived of food, water, and medicine? Even if they hated our guts, they would still be driven out by sheer animal needs, would they not? > > I am not advancing a thesis here, I flat don’t know. But every conjecture I can come up with is more horrid and dreadful than the previous. You are correct sir. I did indeed misread. My apologies. Kaylasdad99s link says "_While camps for displaced civilians have been set up four miles to the north of Fallujah, U.S. forces appear to have no transportation or logistical plan to get civilians from the battle-scarred neighborhoods to the camp._ So that should make you feel better. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/8 "2004-11-17T19:09:17Z")
[**Fears mount for families inside Fallujah**](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=583683) > [@](#): > > \*\*The US military has said that 38 Americans, six Iraqi soldiers and an estimated 1,200 insurgents were killed in the offensive. > > “This exemplifies the horrors of war,” said US Marine Capt PJ Batty of the body pick-up. “\*\*We don’t wish this upon anyone, but everyone needs to understand there are consequences for not following the Iraqi government.” (my underline) \*\* Meet the new boss. Any semblance to the old boss is entirely coincidental and largely a product of the feverish, bleeding liberal’s mind – like ours, for instance. And please, don’t ask how the arrived at those figures. Evidently, a dead Iraqi is a dead insurgent. As for a graphic depiction of what Falluja looks like like today, click [\*\*here.](http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/)\*\* Not for the faint of heart. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/9 "2004-11-17T19:12:03Z")
This is the salient part that I failed to highlight properly: > [@](#): > > **"We don’t wish this upon anyone, but everyone needs to understand there are consequences for not following the Iraqi government."** ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/10 "2004-11-17T19:34:20Z")
I’m only going to say this once… but I worship the American ability for spin. Two and a half years ago, the Israeli army took the town of Jenin with 150 Palestinian casualties, about 40 of our own - and the world called it a massacre. Now the U.S. has killed _ten times as many Arabs_, while using weaponry we didn’t dare use because of the potential innocent casualties (like 155mm artillary, the most undescriminating weapon in any modern military arsenal), and nada. Do you realize the U.S. has killed half as many people in the past week than the IDF has killed in the past FOUR YEARS? And you think the world hates you. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/11 "2004-11-17T21:07:55Z")
“So Where Are the Fallujah Civilians?” Somewhere in that pile of “insurgent” corpses, I’d wager… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/12 "2004-11-17T21:15:49Z")
Hmm, maybe William Calley should come out of retirement. His resume certainly has the requisite experience for the kind of operation the US Army is currently running. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/13 "2004-11-18T01:10:23Z")
**Alessan:** _Two and a half years ago, the Israeli army took the town of Jenin with 150 Palestinian casualties, about 40 of our own - and the world called it a massacre. Now the U.S. has killed ten times as many Arabs, while using weaponry we didn’t dare use because of the potential innocent casualties […], and nada._ What do you mean, “nada”? Try googling “massacre Fallujah” and see all the examples of people who are perfectly willing to call the US actions in Fallujah a massacre. (And I’ve pointed this out before, but the term “massacre” doesn’t necessarily imply anything about the scale of the casualties. We still refer to the 1770 “Boston Massacre” which had a grand total of **five** fatalities. All “massacre” connotes, strictly speaking, is unnecessary slaughter of unarmed people, especially civiians, by an attacking military or police force.) ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/14 "2004-11-18T03:47:02Z")
FWIW, embedded CNN reporter Jane Arraf has hardly seen any, either casualties or walking around. They’re in hiding or, she says, they’ve left. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/15 "2004-11-18T04:08:10Z")
dead [http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/](http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/16 "2004-11-18T09:06:22Z")
That, my radical friend **Reeder** , is one of a number of possibilities, one that becomes more likely with each passing hour. There aren’t a lot of other ones, but I was hopeful that someone would pop up with something, something to allay that growing and gnawing sense of dread. Its one of those situations where you end up examining propaganda, or the lack thereof, for the truth. Like scrying with entrails. I did see a couple of pictures of happy, happy Iraqi citizens unloading a case of bottled water. A couple of pictures. Thing is, if there were 50, we’d see them all. If there were an upside, we may rest assured we would definitely hear about it. But when you see the same picture of the same Marine handing the same chocolate bar to the same street urchin…you know its the only one they have. I would dearly love to be wrong. I’m a pessimist, I’m seldom wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/17 "2004-11-18T13:50:28Z")
According to the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4021629.stm), the [Red Cross](http://www.icrc.org/eng) is equally worried. > [@](#): > > An ICRC spokesman told BBC News that Falluja’s main hospital, on the outskirts of the city, had been freshly stocked with medical equipment, but that wounded people could not get there…He said the ICRC was negotiating with US forces to open a “humanitarian corridor” into the city. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/18 "2004-11-18T14:52:31Z")
Here’s an article in the Washington Post today, about the civilians of Fallujah and the aftermath: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58510-2004Nov17.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58510-2004Nov17.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/19 "2004-11-18T15:21:56Z")
Thanks for the link, **Cap**. Interesting. Hopeful, even, if accurate. Heaven knows, good news these days is any hint that total disaster might be avoided, or at least mitigated. I was struck by this: > [@](#): > > “It’s not a humanitarian crisis,” said Maj. Jim Orbock, a soldier with the Army’s 445th Civil Affairs Battalion. “I think we have a decent handle on what’s going on. As the civilians are coming out, we’re feeding them. We have everything – food, water.” > > The majority of Fallujah’s 250,000 residents fled before the offensive began, and Orbock said it was hard to estimate how many stayed, probably fewer than 1,000. “We know they are out there,” he said… Fewer than 1,000? First question, of course, is where he gets his information, or on what evidence he makes his conjecture. If Maj. Orbock’s figures are accurate, that means that better than 99% if the residents of Fallujah had left. This is a remarkable figure. I live in Minneapolis, an urban location with the typical set of American amenities. I ask myself: “If we were warned, weeks in advance, of a combination plague of locusts and Apache uprising, certain to bring massacre and carnage to our fair city, would we manage to get better than 99% of the population out of town?” I dearly wish the reporter had asked more questions, most especially about the source of Maj. Orbock’s figures. It was then I was treated to this story’s droll little irony: the reporter’s name is “Spinner”. ---
**Author:** ![Roseworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Roseworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roseworm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305/20 "2004-11-18T18:04:36Z")
This may be useful: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6518318/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6518318/) It seems that most of the civilians who were willing and able to leave did in fact leave. I sincerely hope so. They had plenty of warning. I am a big fan of the US Marines, but in a situation like that, I would make every effort to get out of their way. I am a little disturbed by the rather ghoulish tone of some who have posted on this thread. It is almost as if they are _hoping_ for bad news. “\*Yes!!! \* _Thousand_s of civilian casualties. It makes America look _sooo_ bad. Yummy, yummy, yummy.” That sort of attitude is very unseemly, to say the least. Iraqi volunteers are collecting the dead in Fallujah. Undoubtedly they have found some dead civilians. But if they were finding _significant_ numbers of dead civilians I am sure we would hear all about it. While I am on the subject, I would like to offer a word of praise for those Iraqi volunteers. They are collecting bodies which are a week old - a nasty, ugly business. In addition, some of those bodies have been booby-trapped by the terrorists. US Marines are escorting the volunteers to try to protect them from this filthy trick. According to Islam, proper disposal of the dead is a sacred duty and anyone who does it is forbidden to accept payment. Which means these volunteers are collecting rotting corpses and risking their lives _without pay_. God bless them. It gives me hope that the kinder face of Islam will eventually overcome the terrorists. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-are-the-fallujah-civilians/275305.md?page=2)