# So, where did the Democrats go wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165 "2016-11-09T08:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/181 "2016-11-12T22:51:44Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > She had appeal to nearly 600K (0.45%) more people. They were just not strategically located. Problem is, the loss of the presidency is only one part of the picture. The Pubs also control both houses of congress, and the large majority of governorships and state legislatures. Yeah, if Hillary had a couple hundred thousand more strategically-located votes she’d have won the White House … and faced the same intransigent congress that has kept Obama from doing anything except via Executive Orders (to be repealed in 2020 or 2024, just as Obama’s will be in 2016). Out system of government was specifically designed to distribute power geographically and to limit the power of large urban populations. At this point, both parties have become deeply toxic outside their rural/urban core constituencies; but owing to the design of the system, that divide leaves the Pubs with a relatively stronger hand. If the Dems continue to be the Urban Party, they’ll do fine in presidential elections, but they’re putting themselves on the short end of the stick everywhere else. They need geographic diversity, and they will need to tolerate some ideological diversity to acheive it. The other mistake the Dems are making is thinking that changing demographics inevitably favor them. They don’t. For one thing, while the fact that 90% of African-Americans vote Democratic is the good news, the bad news is that there’s nowhere for that number to go but down (and the same is mostly true with Hispanics and others). If the Pubs can manage to get even 25% of blacks and 40% of Hispanics, they win a landslide (and having a New Yorker as the face of their party, as opposed to someone with a Buford Pusser accent, is a good step towards that). The other problem is the assumption that Democrats will keep getting 40% of the white vote, even as the country gets more non-white. But if they keep doubling down on racial-identity politics, minority-preferences, and call-everyone-who-disagrees-a-racist, they’ll keep driving away lower-class whites. There’s no reason to think we can’t reach a point where Democrats have 80% of nonwhites, plus the yuppie progressives who live alongside them in the cities, and the pubs are getting the other 80% of whites (who will still be the majority for several decades). That’s exactly what the harsher elements of the Alt-right want, and there is evidence that’s where things are headed ([The Rise of White Identity Politics | The New Republic](https://newrepublic.com/article/138230/rise-white-identity-politics)). And won’t that be a lovely place to be living. Listening to the suggestions from people like **Fiveyearlurker** would be a good idea. Though to judge by the talk of nominating Keith Ellison as DNC chair, they’re not listening. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/182 "2016-11-12T22:58:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > She had appeal to nearly 600K (0.45%) more people. They were just not strategically located. Could we strategically locate them the people then? You could build a city on the tristate border of north dakota, south dakota, and montana. If it’s metropolitan area was a couple million, that would overpower the populations of those states, flipping 6 senators, 3 representatives, and at 9 electors. More really, as the population increase would likely give them another rep or two each. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/183 "2016-11-14T14:47:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Could we strategically locate them the people then? > > You could build a city on the tristate border of north dakota, south dakota, and montana. If it’s metropolitan area was a couple million, that would overpower the populations of those states, flipping 6 senators, 3 representatives, and at 9 electors. More really, as the population increase would likely give them another rep or two each. Hahahaha. You could build a city on the tristate border. Why expect anyone else to do your work for you? You should also lead the effort to force the relocation of millions of voters to K9bfriender City. Tell them it’s for the children. That one never gets old. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/184 "2016-11-14T14:49:35Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > At least the protesting is less violent compared to when the Democrats rioted after the first Republican was elected. Hehehehe. Good one. Post of the day! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/185 "2016-11-14T14:59:00Z")
for historical reference - > [@doorhinge](#): > > Refresh my memory, when did the Tea Party smash windows, block streets, or attack police officers? > > Protesting is a 1st Amendment right. These protestors are protesting democracy. > > What I find especially amusing is that these protestors seem to be terrorizing the residents of states where the majority actually voted for Hillary. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you look just a coupla posts above, you would see that I join with you in condemning any violence. > > You are talking about protesters, the vast, vast majority of which have been peaceful, as being against democracy. > > If you want to talk about violence, then don’t talk about protests, talk about violence. Your current rhetoric is mixing them up, as if they are the same thing. If you continue to mix them up, after you have been made aware of the issues with your rhetoric, then I will assume that you are doing so intentionally. Refresh my memory, when did the Tea Party smash windows, block streets, or attack police officers? You’re free to make any assumptions you chose. You’re also free to make any demands as to what other posters may, or may not, post. Your biggest challenge may be enforcing your edicts. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/186 "2016-11-14T16:22:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Refresh my memory, when did the Tea Party smash windows, block streets, or attack police officers? The “Tea Party” was an astroturf farce that ultimately [became a fleecing scam](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/tea-party-pacs-ideas-death-214164). They did not protest the 2012 election because there was zero amount of controversy to foment protest. And if you want equivalencies, there were [more](https://www.yahoo.com/news/ex-rep-joe-walsh-says-he-wasnt-calling-for-violence-when-he-vowed-to-grab-a-musket-if-trump-loses-223517893.html) than [one](http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/31/1589298/-Republican-Richard-Burr-caught-on-camera-joking-Hillary-Clinton-should-have-a-bullseye-on-her) stochastic terrorists in the RW, ready to stir up the angry masses if Hillary had won. Not quite equivalent, though – worse, really. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/187 "2016-11-14T17:50:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > for historical reference - > > Refresh my memory, when did the Tea Party smash windows, block streets, or attack police officers? > . > **[ftrradio.com - ftrradio Resources and Information.](http://www.ftrradio.com/2012/12/reporter-injured-as-tea-party-rally-turns-violent-with-racially-motivated-attack)** > > ftrradio.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, ftrradio.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for! There are many other instances where Tea Partiers attacked counter-protesters or carried guns during their protest rallies. They also blocked streets. It’s true they havent attacked a police officer yet. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/188 "2016-11-14T17:52:28Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Ms. Clinton’s lead, by the way, currently reports as larger than would fit in the city of Albuquerque and could very well end at half a percentage point in the final tally. So where the Ds went wrong was obviously complacency and failure to properly target strategic states. Backing this up is a startling fact I heard on NPR yesterday: Bernie won the Wisconsin Democratic primary handily, by something like 20%. You would think that this would cause someone in the Clinton campaign to sit up and take notice? Maybe we don’t have as many fans in Wisconsin as we think? Maybe they’re a bit…restive…and we need to appeal to them? You would be wrong. Hillary made ZERO trips to Wisconsin, assuming they were part of the Blue Wall. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/189 "2016-11-14T18:07:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [ftrradio.com - ftrradio Resources and Information.](http://ftrradio.com/2012/12/reporter-injured-as-tea-party-rally-turns-violent-with-racially-motivated-attack/) > > There are many other instances where Tea Partiers attacked counter-protesters or carried guns during their protest rallies. They also blocked streets. > > It’s true they havent attacked a police officer yet. Hahahaha. You’re a hoot. Did you even read the article you linked, or did you just jump on the first headline you thought backed up your position? You couldn’t have been more wrong. Better luck next time. According to the article you linked - \*And scene. That’s how I believe the main stream media and lefty websites would have reported the left wing violence and racism that transpired at the right-to-work protests if it had been perpetrated by the Tea Party–and not left wing union activists. But it wasn’t the Tea Party. Fox News contributor Steven Crowder was assaulted by a left wing union activist. It was Americans for Prosperity’s tent. It was destroyed by violent, left wing union activists. Clint Tarver’s equipment was destroyed by a mob of mostly white, violent, racist, left wing union activists. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they hurled racial slurs at Tarver as he tried to pick up what was left of his catering equipment. In just one afternoon, the events in Lansing demonstrated what conservatives have known for a long time: If violence and racism is not the whole of the extreme left wing, it is in its heart. It has been seen in the Occupy movement when their protests have turned violent. It can be seen daily on Twitter, as rabid left wing lunatics attack Michelle Malkin with the kind of venom and racism that would make the late Senator Robert the Exalted Cyclops Byrd blush even in his KKK prime.\* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/190 "2016-11-14T19:24:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. You’re a hoot. Did you even read the article you linked, or did you just jump on the first headline you thought backed up your position? You couldn’t have been more wrong. Better luck next time. > > ] I thought it was funny. Didn’t you? But yes, there have been fights with counter-protesters and Tea partiers did carry guns. However, yes, they are not very violent, as a rule. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/191 "2016-11-15T05:30:33Z")
What Did the Democrats do wrong? Well, they lost Wisconsin, for example, by only 27000 votes. **TEN TIMES** that number of voters were turned away at the polls due to new Voter ID laws. The election was rigged. Jim Crow laws rigged it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/192 "2016-11-15T10:35:47Z")
Reports of Wisconsin voters being turned away are anecdotal and inconsistent with Wisconsin’s voter ID law requirements. The 270K-300K is not a measured number, but a pre-election estimate by anti-voter ID activists. Actual Wisconsin turnout was fairly high, 68%. > **[US Elections Project - 2016g](https://www.electproject.org/2016g)** > > 2016 November General Election Turnout Rates > Last updated: 9/5/2018 > A number of different turnout rates are presented here. The preferred turnout rates are those calculated with the voting-eligible population as the denominator. The voting-eligible... That is a drop from 2012, which was 72%, but not the kind of drop you’d expect if voter ID was causing big problems, since national turnout was down by a similar percentage: > **[US Elections Project - 2012G](https://www.electproject.org/2012g)** > > 2012 November General Election Turnout Rates > Last updated: 9/3/2014 Since anti-voter ID advocates will not accept anecdotal stories as proof of anything, they have to provide more than anecdotes themselves to prove their arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/193 "2016-11-15T21:00:14Z")
This link says **Bill Clinton** had the same explanation as some posters here, and had it before the day of the election. It also this says Bill and Hillary had a huge fight over it. [Days before losing the election Hillary and Bill had a screaming match over who to blame for her flagging campaign](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3935800/Days-losing-election-Hillary-Bill-Clinton-sceaming-match-blame-flagging-campaign-ex-president-angry-threw-phone-roof-Arkansas-penthouse.html) (Daily Mail article) > [@](#): > > During the campaign, Bill Clinton felt that he was ignored by Hillary’s top advisers when he urged them to make the economy the centerpiece of her campaign. > > He repeatedly urged them to connect with the people who had been left behind by the revolutions in technology and globalization. > > ‘Bill said that constantly attacking Trump for his defects made Hillary’s staff and the media happy, but that it wasn’t a message that resonated with voters, especially in the rust belt,’ the source explained. > > ‘Bill always campaigned as a guy who felt your pain, but Hillary came across as someone who was pissed off at her enemy [Trump], not someone who was reaching out and trying to make life better for the white working class.’ ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/194 "2016-11-15T21:10:25Z")
> [@Frankenstein\_Monster](#): > > This link says **Bill Clinton** had the same explanation as some posters here, and had it before the day of the election. It also this says Bill and Hillary had a huge fight over it. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if she refused to do it specifically _because_ he suggested it. Someday, maybe in a couple years but more likely after both Bill and Hill are dead, there are going to be some amazing books about their marriage/career. Greek tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/195 "2016-11-15T21:28:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reports of Wisconsin voters being turned away are anecdotal and inconsistent with Wisconsin’s voter ID law requirements. The 270K-300K is not a measured number, but a pre-election estimate by anti-voter ID activists. > > Actual Wisconsin turnout was fairly high, 68%. > > [US Elections Project - 2016g](http://www.electproject.org/2016g) > > That is a drop from 2012, which was 72%, but not the kind of drop you’d expect if voter ID was causing big problems, since national turnout was down by a similar percentage: > > [US Elections Project - 2012G](http://www.electproject.org/2012g) > > Since anti-voter ID advocates will not accept anecdotal stories as proof of anything, they have to provide more than anecdotes themselves to prove their arguments. [Tighter Restrictions Are Losing In The Battle Over Voter ID Laws](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tighter-restrictions-are-losing-in-the-battle-over-voter-id-laws/) > [@](#): > > In 2012, my boss Nate Silver found that the academic literature on this question was in broad agreement: Voter ID laws “seem to decrease turnout by about 2 percent as a share of the registered voter population.” > > Indeed, a 2014 Government Accountability Office report, one of the most cited pieces of research on this topic, looked at two states (Kansas and Tennessee) that added voter ID requirements, compared with a handful of states that did not. It found, essentially, that the requirements depressed turnout somewhere between 2 and 3 percentage points. > [@](#): > > . A paper forthcoming in the Journal of Politics, titled “Voter Identification Laws and the Suppression of Minority Votes” and written by a trio of political scientists, finds that, in the presence of strict ID laws, the predicted gap in participation between black and white voters in general elections increases from 2.9 points to 5.1 points, and in primaries increases from 2.5 points to 11.6 points. A similar result holds for the gap between Latino and white voters. More starkly, they find “that voter ID laws skew democracy toward those on the political right.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/196 "2016-11-16T07:12:23Z")
That’s better, although it’s far from proof, given that in this particular election it looks like Wisconsin saw turnout decreases on par with other states. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/197 "2016-11-16T09:37:36Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > She had a fucking _five percentage point_ lead two weeks out. Then that FBI guy dropped his bombshell. The decline was gradual, but just enough. She had no effective response. And, of course, we will probably never hear another word about whatever was on Huma Abedin’s computer, unless some agent makes a big noise about how there was nothing there. Uh, we already heard before the election that [there was nothing there](http://www.towleroad.com/2016/11/emails/). The problem is whether those who voted for Trump heard it. If you didn’t hear it, that seems unlikely. As for the topic of this thread, I’m reminded of why I was worried about Clinton early on. I said before that, in my lifetime, the more charismatic candidate has always won. Now, granted, I don’t understand Trump’s mirror-universe version of charisma, but it did at least make him more charismatic than Clinton. So I agree that we need to never run a non-charismatic candidate again. I also agree with bringing up the job issue. Since I didn’t watch any political ads (as I knew who I was voting for), I just assumed she was making that appeal, too. Not that I think knowing that she wasn’t would have done me any good. I do not think changing tactics about calling out racism and sexism is a viable way forward. We lost some of the minority vote to not voting. No need to go further. No need to compromise what Democrats stand for in that way. I do think there is a need for the anti-bigoted cause to actually use our political correctness with the actual racists and sexists out there. But I don’t think that’s really something that changed the election. That’s just a way forward in general. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/198 "2016-11-16T11:00:17Z")
Excellent post, BigT – I agree with every word. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/199 "2016-11-16T11:23:10Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So I agree that we need to never run a non-charismatic candidate again. Such candidates are rare. I don’t think there’s ever been a race with two, and most races feature none. An intelligent campaign can also make a charismatic but empty candidate look simply slick. All things being equal, charisma is a good thing, but beware of John Edwards types. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/200 "2016-11-16T13:09:13Z")
“Don’t call Clinton a weak candidate: it took decades of scheming to beat her: Years of Republican plots, an opponent deified by television, and FBI smears stood in her way – and she still won the popular vote by more than Kennedy did” > **[Don't call Clinton a weak candidate: it took decades of scheming to beat her](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/14/hillary-clinton-defeat-republicans-trump-comey)** > > Years of Republican plots, an opponent deified by television, and FBI smears stood in her way – and she still won the popular vote by more than Kennedy did > [@](#): > > It’s impossible to disconnect the seething, irrational emotionality from misogyny, and the misogyny continues. Since election night, I’ve been hearing too many men of the left go on and on about how Clinton was a weak candidate. I’ve wondered about that word weak, not only because it is so often associated with women, but because what they’re calling her weakness was their refusal to support her. It’s as if they’re saying, “They sent a pink lifeboat and we sent it back, because we wanted a blue lifeboat, and now we are very upset that people are drowning.” > > Or, as my brilliant friend Aruna d’Souza put it Wednesday: “At some point soon we need to discuss whether Sanders would have been able to win, but helpful hint: today, it just sounds like you’re saying: ‘The Democrats should have cut into Trump’s lead in the misogynist vote and the whitelash vote by running a white man.’ Let’s come to terms with the racism and the misogyny first, before analyzing the what-ifs – because otherwise we’re just going to replicate it forever. And if you think that the angry anti-establishment vote won (hence Sanders would have fared better), let me remind you that patriarchy and white supremacy are the cornerstones of the Establishment.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165.md?page=11)