# So, where did the Democrats go wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165 "2016-11-09T08:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/121 "2016-11-10T21:14:17Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > What I am still baffled by is why the Democratic establishment cleared the deck for her when her weaknesses were all too clear They _owed_ the Cintons, politically. Obama may have won the 2008 primary and election but OFA did not displace the old party hands, and furthermore the Tea Party swells of 2010-2014 especially at the state level culled all but the well-rooted, well-established Dems. So you ended up with a largely “legacy” Establishment and an atmosphere concerned lest you antagonize her, as a member of the Establishment, and you will be denied the mythical Clinton fundraising prowess and Favors Receivable ledger just when you need them most. In this environment, expecting a “normal” Republican in the race, and aware that “third term” tends to be uphill and even more so for a Dem in the Tea Party age, the establishment wanted someone safe and “reliale” who’d raise truckloads of cash and not be accused of being more socialist than Obama(\*). (\*ok so in practice anyone can be more socialist than Obama with minimal effort… that’s another story) ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/122 "2016-11-10T22:10:50Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Maybe it really does just come down to which candidate is the most charismatic. Other than maybe Nixon, I can’t think of a single winner that was less charismatic than the loser, going at least as far back as FDR. If this is the case then the Democrats failed by not selecting a charismatic candidate. Isn’t “charisma” in the eye of the beholder, though? In practice, it doesn’t seem to have a very firm definition other than “that quality which causes the possessor to win elections.” ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/123 "2016-11-10T22:51:53Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Isn’t “charisma” in the eye of the beholder, though? In practice, it doesn’t seem to have a very firm definition other than “that quality which causes the possessor to win elections.” I suppose it is, but it’s something that can still be somewhat determined even before the election. In 2000, for example, there was the infamous “who would you rather have a beer with” question that W easily beat Gore on. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/124 "2016-11-10T23:17:05Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Many people, myself included, assumed this would be a blowout for Clinton. Obviously that turned out not to be the case. > So, what were some of the Democrats’ biggest missteps here? Do we seriously have to say this? You ran Hillary Clinton. You could not have picked a worse candidate. Well, maybe you could have; we’ll see who you turn up with in 2020… She was the face and embodiment of the liberal elitism and privileged mentality that the rest of us have come to despise. Not to mention that she was a disaster as SoS. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/125 "2016-11-10T23:51:12Z")
This guy appears to have a theory about what went wrong: Spoiler, NSFW language [President Trump: How & Why... - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/126 "2016-11-11T00:21:02Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Isn’t “charisma” in the eye of the beholder, though? In practice, it doesn’t seem to have a very firm definition other than “that quality which causes the possessor to win elections.” Yessssss, but. 😕 And although I’ve seen it explained that Trump was more “real” than Clinton, I’d be hard pressed to believe he has any charisma. Maybe in the past? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/127 "2016-11-11T00:27:00Z")
> [@joyfool](#): > > Yessssss, but. 😕 And although I’ve seen it explained that Trump was more “real” than Clinton, I’d be hard pressed to believe he has any charisma. Maybe in the past? Are phrases like, “Grab them by the pussy” charismatic? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/128 "2016-11-11T00:39:18Z")
Given that the numbers I have been seeing lately show her lead as a number of voters who would overwhelm the city of St. Louis MO, I would say that what went wrong was nothing more than effective targeting. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/129 "2016-11-11T01:28:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are phrases like, “Grab them by the pussy” charismatic? :dubious: Not to me, but maybe to them women that voted for him and chose to overlook that. Hell if I know. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/130 "2016-11-11T08:39:40Z")
> [@computergeek](#): > > In hindsight, I’m not sure there was much the Democratic Party could have done differently to win. It seems in hindsight this is completely wrong. It seems from reading this article, [It Appears As Though Hillary Clinton Was Ultimately Done In By Low Democratic Voter Turnout](http://uproxx.com/news/hillary-clinton-democratic-voter-turnout/), which is showing the American voting data that you have the confirmation it was indeed the collapse in the enthusiasm and the support of Mrs Clinton’s own party and not an explosion of the support to Trump > [@](#): > > Last night and this morning many seemed to think that the reason Trump won was because angry white voters turned out in large numbers to vote for him. But with nearly all the votes now tallied it appears as though that’s just not the case. In fact, Trump garnered fewer overall votes nationwide than John McCain and Mitt Romney, the past two losing GOP nominees, did in 2008 and 2012. As of this writing, with almost all votes counted, Trump has tallied 59,611,678 votes; Romney pulled in 60,933,504 in 2012, and McCain 59,948,323 in 2008. > > By comparison, Hillary’s 59,814,018 votes (which won her the popular vote, but not the Electoral College vote) is considerably less than the 69,498,516 Obama got in 2008, and the 65,915,795 he received in 2012. She was particularly hurt by low turnout in crucial swing states. and > [@](#): > > Further, Vox notes that “Clinton garnered 129,000 fewer votes in heavily Democratic Detroit than Obama did four years ago — and lost the state by around 61,000 total votes” and that she “got 95,000 fewer votes in heavily Democratic Milwaukee than Obama did — and lost the state by 73,000 total votes.” > > Additionally, core Democratic voting groups likes blacks and Hispanics didn’t vote along party lines for Clinton as many assumed they would. As Pew Research notes, “Clinton held an 80-point advantage among blacks (88% to 8%) compared with Obama’s 87-point edge four years ago (93% to 6%). In 2008, Obama had a 91-point advantage among blacks.” > > **So while the theory that Trump won because of angry white people turning out in droves for him may be popular, the truth behind Clinton’s defeat appears to lie in the fact that voters were just not passionate enough about her to get out and actually vote for her, and the ones who did weren’t as loyal to the party as they were for Obama.** > > One of the big knocks against Clinton in the Democratic primary was that, in addition to not being particularly charismatic and exciting, the emphasis added. This [graphic also makes it visually clear the collapse in the voting generally](http://dr35ey0x3otoq.cloudfront.net/uploads/default/original/3X/8/8/880553df9a2d08301375064b2708fecb7950f614.png), and the super collapse for the democratic candidate, and it compares to the Obama of 2012. Trump did not do very well, but Clinton did extremely badly. So it was a mistake to choose the non-charismatic and also disliked potential candidate, very simply. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/131 "2016-11-11T09:14:55Z")
I’d say that’s the perfect end to the campaign: neither party one, but one of them lost. I read an interesting article about how Republicans held the Senate. It was misnamed, because the Republicans didn’t actually do anything to hold the Senate. It just sorta happened. There was no brilliant plan, some Senators ran good campaigns, some didn’t, but most of them won and some were rather surprised by it. But now we know that all that really happened is that they didn’t lose. There was no strategy. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/132 "2016-11-11T11:01:55Z")
Basically, Democrats (including candidates, campaigns, and grassroots voters) just sat around like doofuses and dribbled away all their advantages, like a football team that manages to fumble the ball away at the end of the game when they’re supposed to be in “victory formation”. Pathetic. FFS * * * **NB:** _As of Friday, Nov. 11, 2016 at 11:59 p.m. CST, I’m unsubscribing from all political threads and will no longer participate in discussions in the Elections board, nor in political discussions in the Pit or MPSIMS. If you reply to a political post of mine after that point, I will not see it; please do not PM me to try to pull me back in to the debate. Thanks!_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/133 "2016-11-11T18:18:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Basically, Democrats (including candidates, campaigns, and grassroots voters) just sat around like doofuses and dribbled away all their advantages, like a football team that manages to fumble the ball away at the end of the game when they’re supposed to be in “victory formation”. Pathetic. FFS That’s part of it, due to how well she was doing in the Polls. Another part is GOP voter Jim Crow laws. Another part is the Bernie-Bros- they didnt know how to campaign\* for\* their candidate, so they bought Roves lies and kept using them against Hillary, even long after the Nomination was sealed up. I got a couple in my FB feed, they are still going on how the DNC stole the nomination from Bernie. Karl Roves lies worked really well. He pushed really hard on the idea that both candidates were so crappy you might as well not vote. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/134 "2016-11-11T18:22:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s part of it, due to how well she was doing in the Polls. > > Another part is GOP voter Jim Crow laws. > > Another part is the Bernie-Bros- they didnt know how to campaign\* for\* their candidate, so they bought Roves lies and kept using them against Hillary, even long after the Nomination was sealed up. I got a couple in my FB feed, they are still going on how the DNC stole the nomination from Bernie. > > Karl Roves lies worked really well. He pushed really hard on the idea that both candidates were so crappy you might as well not vote. Hillary didn’t help by lying. She earned the lack of trust of the people all by herself. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/135 "2016-11-11T18:34:15Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Hillary didn’t help by lying. She earned the lack of trust of the people all by herself. Her lies were within normal for any Politico, in fact she lied less than any other candidate except Bernie. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/136 "2016-11-11T19:01:25Z")
I guess the most obvious one is they had a candidate that clearly didn’t inspire enough people to go vote, as Ramira said. But they also took the “blue wall” too much for granted and there were clues that don’t require hindsight. She knew Trump’s support was with working class whites. Her primary losses in Wisconsin and Michigan were not well predicted by the polls, so she should have been leary of trusting them in the general. And she never set foot in Wisconsin during the presidential campaign. So they should have recognized a possible weakness, not trusted the polls so much there and made more of a show of giving a crap about them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/137 "2016-11-11T19:27:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Her lies were within normal for any Politico, in fact she lied less than any other candidate except Bernie. I would argue that she didn’t lie enough. She apologized. She walked back some statements. She acknowledged errors. That was her mistake. She should have lied bigly, and never apologized. I don’t like the tactic, but Trump just proved that that is the winning tactic, and winning is everything now. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/138 "2016-11-11T19:28:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Her lies were within normal for any Politico, in fact she lied less than any other candidate except Bernie. I’m going to disagree there. After making up a story about ducking sniper fire she lost my vote forever. I’m used to exaggerations, hidden sins and ignorance but that was in another league for me. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/139 "2016-11-11T20:59:32Z")
I will admit, the sniper fire thing seemed pretty egregious until Brian Williams did the same thing and I started to wonder. And it just doesn’t compare to the insane level to which Trump lies constantly. * * * **NB:** _As of Friday, Nov. 11, 2016 at 11:59 p.m. CST, I’m unsubscribing from all political threads and will no longer participate in discussions in the Elections board, nor in political discussions in the Pit or MPSIMS. If you reply to a political post of mine after that point, I will not see it; please do not PM me to try to pull me back in to the debate. Thanks!_ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165/140 "2016-11-11T21:27:33Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > I’m going to disagree there. After making up a story about ducking sniper fire she lost my vote forever. I’m used to exaggerations, hidden sins and ignorance but that was in another league for me. Perhaps she believed that she did. Perhaps she was warned of snipers, and being afraid, believed that they could be shot.’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-where-did-the-democrats-go-wrong/771165.md?page=8)