So you don’t mind the group of 40 year old men having sex with your 16 year old daughter?
Can I get some help here?
Is it concealed carry if you let others know that you are carrying? Does concealed carry require that you do everything reasonably possible so that others are not aware that you are carrying? How often do others become aware that an individual is carrying a concealed weapon, with or without the intent of the carrier?
Assuming that we are talking about legal behavior and carry that others remain unaware of then it is a question of consideration:
How much do you do when you have a legal right to do so versus how much consideration you have for the discomfort of others.
Clearly the possible need for defensive gun use in a daycare, at church, or at a kids’ soccer game, is nonzero but extremely small. The possibility of an experienced (and sane) gun owner wearing the weapon in a manner that a child could have access to it or getting into an argument and using their weapon in a escalatory manner is also small but nonzero. (Which is smaller is irrelevant here. Both are so small as to be difficult to measure.)
So we are left with compliance vs noncompliance with local cultural norms and the comfort of others vs the expression of individual rights. In some circumstances it is reasonably expected that a known weapon will cause much discomfort to others, even if it provides some small marginal additional sense of comfort to the one who is carrying. To do so in those circumstances is rude.
Application of the basic rule here is valid: Do not do unto others that which you would not have them do unto you. If you wouldn’t like someone to do things that made you and your family uncomfortable in a public space (farting, insulting Jesus or Mohammad or Moses, whatever), even though they had a legal right to do so, then you shouldn’t do that which makes others uncomfortable as well.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Well surely it would be OK to carry one in a gunfight.
Or is that just the dream of those that carry one?
My Pa Pa always told me to bring a knife…I durnt tink he liked me much
The laws may vary from State to State (and note that this disclaimer applies to everything I say in here afterwards), but in the States around me informing people you’re carrying concealed is 100% legal.
Legally speaking, in my State open carry is the rule, but the police can (and often do) choose to harass and intimidate you into not exercising that right. Generally speaking incidental or accidental exposure (called “printing”) is not illegal, but then my CCW instructor told us of a gentleman who accidentally showed his gun in a side holster underneath a loose jacket at a grocery store. The police got a call of “man with a GUN shopping for cereal”, or words to that effect, and did a full felony-stop takedown of him outside the store. And after cuffing him, harassing him, and yelling at him, let him go, eventually, with no charges, hours later. The police in my city actively campaigned against CCW, and the chief is on record as saying he will make it as inconvenient as possible for people to exercise their State-given rights.
Anecdotally speaking, extremely rarely. I carry mine in my handbag - the only way anyone would know is if they got into my handbag and started fishing around. I think most women use a purse or handbag to carry. Men tend to be of large enough frames that it’s fairly easy to hide a weapon.
My only concern with carrying around children is that I know women who throw their handbags anywhere, and who also don’t discipline their children well enough, such that they have not trained their child not to rummage through mommy’s purse like a rabid raccoon in a garbage bin. My handbag never, ever leaves my person when I’m carrying. When I’m sitting at a table, I don’t even set it next to me, I set it flat on my lap under the napkin, just so there’s no chance at all it could be taken without my knowing.
Let me take this moment to add a general aside to say that I don’t understand the daycare center example being held out as a place which should be sacrosanct.
FWIW, that’s not what I’m doing: I offered it as an example of a place where people would probably “have a fit” about someone carrying it, yet where it probably wouldn’t be needed.
Daniel
The dream of everyone I know that carries is to never need it. If I live my entire life without ever being in a situation that requires me to draw my gun, I’ll be fine with that.
Contrary to popular belief, CCW holders are law abiding citizens who have a tight rein on their emotions. Much to the disappointment of a certain subsection of the population, shall-issue laws have repeatedly failed to result in running gunbattles in the streets. There are few to no Rambo wannabes.
I’m assuming that most of those who carry are not going to misuse their weapons, and hopefully a 40-year-old man is not going to have sex with a 16-year-old, which isn’t legal in California. I don’t see the connection between the two.
If I had a 16-year-old daughter I would mind it much more than someone using a firearm to bully their way around like Phil Spector.
The question is what you define as “ok.” I think the local jurisdiction should make the decision based on the person’s employment and possible threats. I’m sure there are a lot of people who are carrying who probably don’t really need it. And if the community votes to outlaw it, that makes it easier for law enforcement to round up people who are committing crimes. There’s nothing to stop a person who can pass a background check from legally buying a firearm and using it to commit a crime like robbery or simply getting pissed off and using it in a fit of pique to harm someone. It’s not a cut and dried issue, and it has nothing to do with my hypothetical daughter and 40-year-old men.
But if it the community has decided to make it legal, that’s their decision.
Demonstrably untrue (see subscriptions to Soldier of Fortune)*. What’s probably true is that there are few to no Rambo wannabes among the CCW holders crowd. That CCW holder crowd is a subset of gun owners. Not all gun owners are CCW holders.
Daniel
- This comment intended facetiously.
In case I missed it, I’m trying again.
Is it actually legal to concealed carry in a day care anyway? Or is it one of those things that it’s okay if they simply haven’t marked it as illegal?
I’m assuming that most of those who legally carry are not going to misuse their weapons, and hopefully a 40-year-old man is not going to have sex with a 16-year-old, which isn’t legal in California. I don’t see the connection between the two.
If I had a 16-year-old daughter I would mind it much more than someone using a firearm to bully their way around like Phil Spector.
The question is what you define as “ok.” I think the local jurisdiction should make the decision based on the person’s employment and possible threats. I’m sure there are a lot of people who are carrying who probably don’t really need it. And if the community votes to outlaw it, that makes it easier for law enforcement to round up people who are committing crimes. There’s nothing to stop a person who can pass a background check from legally buying a firearm and using it to commit a crime like robbery or simply getting pissed off and using it in a fit of pique to harm someone. It’s not a cut and dried issue, and it has nothing to do with my hypothetical daughter and 40-year-old men.
But if it the community has decided to make it legal, that’s their decision.
You’re kidding, right? Are you that far removed from reality? You don’t get out much, obviously.
Because if you’ve ever met a gun owner (like me), you would know that most of us who own guns hope we never, ever, have to actually use one. It’s like insurance: We own it, certainly, but we’d actually prefer to make it all the way through life without ever using it.
To some extent, the same is true about cops: Most all cops have a gun, but ask a cop on any night, and they will tell you that they always hope this will be the night where they won’t have to pull it out. They’re profession often dictates otherwise, however, but the point is made: Even cops, who wear guns as part of their profession, NEVER look forward to using one.
Same is true with most private gun owners like me. I own guns (2 of them), and have had all the proper professional training to own one. But I hope I never have to use one in an actual real-live situation. So you can see I’m not a “cowboy” looking for the next Gunsmoke: I’m a private family man who owns a gun just in case the cops don’t arrive fast enough.
In my State it is absolutely legal to carry in a private day-care, provided that the owner of the day care does not prohibit such, and they have displayed, according to the AG’s instructions, the proper signage in the proper place. YMMV depending upon which State you are in.
If it is a day-care that is being run at a school building, then no, it would not be legal inside the building. Again, YMMV.
Thanks Una. It seems (although I no longer pay much attention, so the reality could be vastly different than my perception) that here in Texas, they pretty much have signs everywhere stating that’s it’s illegal to conceal carry on their premises, so I can imagine that it would be almost more hassle than it’s worth.
Thank you for the information.
So even “concealed carry” runs into the potential of making others uncomfortable, depending upon local cultural norms. And even intentionally making people uncomfortable and implicitly intimidating them is legal. (“My ex may not pick up my child from here. Oh, by the way, did I tell you that I carry a gun with me at all times?”)
The day care example (and the op’s soccer game example as well) to me represents a circumstance in which various others may feel that an armed person may represent a threat. Many parents might feel that a person who feels insecure enough that they need to be armed to go to daycare or to a soccer game is potentially not a completely stable individual, a non-stable individual with a weapon. (Parents’ paranoia is generally at least on par with and as intense as the paranoia of those who believe that they need to be armed at all times lest the Luby event occurs.) Knowledge that an armed person (who to their assessment must be a bit “off” if they feel the need to carry at a kid’s soccer game) is around their kids, is very anxiety provoking. (Of course this may vary according to local cultural norms.)
Again, it may be legal to carry under those circumstances, but unless you really feel that you need that sort of protection for that sort of task, the marginal increased sense of security that you garner does not justify the marginal discomfort that you cause. And if you really feel that you do need that level of protection lest you perceive yourself at great risk from the impending Luby event, then I’m with the paranoid parents - I’d be concerned that you are not a completely stable individual who is armed around kids. So someone carrying in a known way in those circumstances is either intentionally being inconsiderate of others or walking a bit on the paranoid side. Okay, or perhaps really under some real threat, like having ratted out on coke dealers or something, a case that I’d perceive as a threat to the children’s safety as well. I’d bet on rude but that is the best option.
What I like to say is that there are gun owners, and there are people who have guns.
OK, to expand on that:
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There are conscientious, conscious, aware gun owners who are generally highly law-abiding people who are decently careful.
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And then there are people who have an old gun or guns thrown in a drawer or leaning in a closet somewhere which may or may not be loaded, they’re not really sure and besides they probably won’t use it so may as well leave it where someone who shouldn’t get it can get it and cause mayhem.
There are not enough of the former and way, way too many of the latter. I’ve posted on this message board before, but I’ll repeat - IMO there are far too many people with guns and access to them, but I do not know how to limit their access in a way that does not lead to a steeper slope for disarming, limiting, and greatly harming the good gun owners out there. I posted once a proposal for a gun safety license being required for gun ownership, making it as gun-owner friendly as I could think of, and even then I had few gun owners on here think it was a good idea.
I don’t think my gun ownership and carry rights should be restricted any more than they already are - if anything, I think they should be increased. At the same time, I’ve seen far too many people personally having guns who I wouldn’t trust with a burnt-out match. One of the key reasons for too many people who shouldn’t have guns having them is that people often don’t do anything to police their friends, family, and people thew know have guns. There is a very strong individualist tone to gun owners, and this can lead to such things as people pointedly ignoring an individual who’s acting unsafe during hunting, or on the range, which is idiocy. At my local shooting range I have seen far too many unsafe shooters in the booths, and to tell the truth, if you ever go over to give some friendly advice, the reaction is typically unpleasant to hostile. Men tend to think that it’s a slight on their manhood if you try to tell them that holding the pistol in between their thighs is not the proper thing to do while clearing a jam. And women who shoot take it as a personal slight on their independence, and that you’re being patronizing, if you say anything about not standing watching someone else with their finger on the trigger. Gun owners need to be more proactive and more self-policing as a group, IMO, to help make the practice and the people in it safer than they are.
Relatives are the hardest thing to deal with, which is especially bad as it seems to be family members who you’re most likely to know have an unsafe gun. Several times on the SDMB someone has posted about a relative of theirs who either did something incredibly unsafe with a gun, or else who shouldn’t legally have a gun in the first place. In the former, did they do anything about it, and in the latter did they call the police? Fuck no - read the Pit to see innumerable threads of impotent rage by people who are too terrified to face their family over the simplest things such as holiday decorations or what toppings they want on their pizza. It’s not a reflection of Dopers in general, it’s a reflection of people’s general terror that they have for family confrontations.
Long, long ago I took guns from family members who shouldn’t have had them, kept them from them, locked away. I did the same last year, too, and have two more guns, unloaded with cable locks securing them. It didn’t make me first on the Christmas Card list, but it was the right thing to do. And I expect no less of any responsible gun owner.
Sure, if someone goes out of their way to advertise they carry concealed, that’s unlikely to win them friends in today’s Society. I never tell anyone unless they specifically ask.
Hm. Rule of thumb: It is not okay to carry a gun in a location or situation where you are most likely going to be impaired.
Eg: Any bar, if you’re going to be drinking. Any location at all while on mood-altering medication.
Places it is a less good idea to carry a gun: Anywhere or any situation where hands that are not yours are likely to get their hands on it. Daycare is one of those situations. Kids got grabby hands and no sense of boundaries. If one remains aware of this issue, it’s not a big problem.
I wouldn’t be horribly concerned about a parent picking up their child and carrying.
I might be somewhat concerned about a person who worked at a daycare carrying, for that reason.
Sound good?
And Una it is the knowledge that the person who is “showing” could be one of the less responsible gun possessors that scares the non-gun owning parents at day care and soccer games. For many particular individuals that concern is completely unjustified but the other parents have no way of knowing. So they are scared and I have a hard time imagining how a responsible gun owner would blame them.
Your initial standard of “It’s ‘OK’ where I am legally allowed to and see fit to do so” seems inadequate - sometimes you shouldn’t do that which you are within your rights to do.
So some people are good gun users. Some are bad. Since gun people fight for everyone to have as much gun rights as possible,they are partly responsible for those who should not be able to, carrying every place they go. If I go to a dangerous event like a 6 year old soccer game, and I notice a woman carrying,how do I know if she isn’t a fruitcake that lax laws let loose on society. If I were in a New York bar last night I could have been shot by Plaxico Burris who accidently shot himself in the leg. He has a permit to carry in Florida. They should take it away immediately. They should not allow him to ever have guns again.