# So, which part of my life do I give up to avoid being raped? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 18, 2005, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339 "2005-01-18T09:27:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/81 "2005-01-19T10:46:30Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > “Some men are commiting rape, so we should give them all curfews.” > “Some black men are commiting robbery, so we should give them all curfews.” That analogy doesn’t apply here. Anyone of any race or gender can commit robbery. Male-on-female rape is committed by men. > [@](#): > > Um, cite that I am in any way ‘unfomfortable’ with accepting that there are date-rapists? Or did you throw in the refrence to my argument for no purpose? She said society, not you personally. > [@](#): > > Last I saw, nobody was making a law. You’re free to do whatever you want. There are simply certain activities that are risky. > > Um… because being in a group that in (your misguided opinion) means they ‘might’ be a rapist isn’t grounds for revocation of their civil rights? > If, however, you planned on curfewing known sex offenders (eg. men who **actually** _might_ attack women) then maybe I could agree. > > Hate to break it to you, but no matter how many women are raped, you don’t have the goddamn right to lock me in my house if I’ve commited no crime. > Sorry. > > Peddle this misandryonystic bullshit elsewhere. No, no one’s making a law. But women are always being advised to modify their behavior, while no one is telling men to modify theirs. > [@](#): > > Do we? What states have curfew-laws-only-for-women on the books? > And, not being held under house arrest without commiting a crime is somehow giving men ‘more freedom?’ Funny, I never realized that basic civil rights are somehow ‘extra’ if you have a penis. See **Hilarity** ’s post about the college campus. Men came onto the campus and caused problems, so the women, who were there first, had **their** rights restricted. No attempt whatsoever to curtail the men who were **causing** the problem. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/82 "2005-01-19T10:46:57Z")
Sorry about the formatting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/83 "2005-01-19T10:57:28Z")
> [@margin](#): > > That’s at least three times in various posts you’ve brought up some variation of the myth of the dark alley, Myth? Are you out of your freakin’ gourd? Are you honestly going to tell me that walking down dark streets/alley ways at night, alone, isn’t risky? Are you nuts? > [@margin](#): > > yet you can’t see why this indicates that you have this rediculous stereotype on your mind to the exclusion of the reality of sexual assaults. Honey chile, whatever indications your first rate minds draws from my position do not concern me. The fact of the matter is, date rape is much harder to protect against, and it’s not a risk factor that’s easy to reduce. But not being in bad places after dark, is. > [@margin](#): > > I missed the quote about ‘rounding up all men’ on first read through, but that’s it for me. That’s quite a huge leap. It’s almost Godwinian in its overkill. Bullshit, idiot. You were talking about curfewing men. You think this isn’t equivelent to ‘rounding them up?’ I’ve somehow Godwinized this thread by pointing out that ‘curfewing’ men means placing them under house arrest? > [@margin](#): > > Another straw man, sweetie. Time’s up. And as an added bonus, you used the race card. How nice. Not a strawman you lying bitch, and not a race card either you moron. > [@YOU](#): > > If it’s fair to restrict women to ‘protect’ them then it’s fair to restrict men for what they might do. In case you’re curious, you’re saying that if it’s fair to ‘restrict’ women for their own safety, you should be able to restrict men for women’s safety. Strawman my ass you fucking intelectual coward. Moreoever, I played no race card, I pointed out just how bigoted and idiotic your rhetoric is. Change “black man” to any other group for whom discrimination isn’t allowed. Your misandristic bullshit makes me sick, you are nothing but what the early generation of feminists fought against. Fuck you. > [@margin](#): > > It is, however, quite enough to realize that I’m wasting my time with you. Yeah, that’s right. I’m the idiot. Keep it up sparky. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/84 "2005-01-19T10:57:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is just loopey. > How is making sure that women have escorts and are protected somehow wrong? If the criminal wasn’t a rapist, but a murderer, and you ordered all troops to travel in pairs, would you be ‘restricting their right’ to be murdered? Come on! > > Um, because the men have **done nothing wrong**? Not that your desire to punish an entire group of people for no reason what-so-ever isn’t oh so quaint and cute… > And, because the decision to have women be accompanied by a second person is to protect them? _ **Neither have the women!** _ Still, you would have us become, in effect, prisoners in our own homes. You really don’t get how obnoxious and objectionable this is, do you? Actually, to me, it’s creepily reminiscent of Margaret Atwood’s _The Handmaid’s Tale_ in which women are required to walk in pairs because it’s considered unsafe for them to walk alone. I’m female and a loner by nature. I’ve also always had more men friends than women. Even when I was at college with my best girl friend, she lived in a different dorm for the first two years. Requiring that I only go out at night unless accompanied by a woman would have been a major inconvenience, especially when I was working a shift which started at 6:00 am at the school cafeteria. Hell, my roommate complained enough about me turning on enough light to get dressed by. No _way_ would she have accompanied me to work and, even if she did, how would she get back? A tiny fraction of men cannot control themselves, therefore all women must restrict themselves. How can that possibly be right? By the way, last week two men were on trial for shooting and paralyzing a man in a parking garage as part of a mugging. Not once during that trial did I hear anyone suggest that he shouldn’t have been in that parking garage or that he should have asked for an escort to his car, although I’m pretty sure the latter would have prevented that. Criminals tend to be cowards. Maybe we should have men walk in pairs in parking garages? CJ ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/85 "2005-01-19T11:01:31Z")
Siege, I think he or she is a waste of time. Check out its post above. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/86 "2005-01-19T11:05:02Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > That analogy doesn’t apply here. Anyone of any race or gender can commit robbery. Male-on-female rape is committed by men. No, the analogy certainly does hold, and you are artificially limiting the word rape to ‘man raping woman’. If, for instance, statistics show that young black men commit crimes, it is bigoted and wrong to place all young black men under curfew. Likewise, if statistics show that young men commit rape, it is bigoted and wrong to place all young men under curfew. Moreoever, men can rape other men, women can rape men (and it does happen), and women can rape other women. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > She said society, not you personally. You want to read the second sentence in the bit you just quoted from me? > [@Rilchiam](#): > > No, no one’s making a law. But women are always being advised to modify their behavior, while no one is telling men to modify theirs. Earthshattering news, but, women ‘have to’ (read: should if they’re interested in protecting themselves) modify their behavior because, unfortunately, their gender means they might be the target of certain crimes. A man, simply being a man, does not mean that he’s a rapist, potential rapist, or needs to modify a jot of his behavior. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > See **Hilarity** ’s post about the college campus. Men came onto the campus and caused problems, so the women, who were there first, had **their** rights restricted. Yes, and I think that’s bullshit. What’s your point? > [@Rilchiam](#): > > No attempt whatsoever to curtail the men who were **causing** the problem. That’s because they **had no idea which men were causing the problem!!!** You can NOT collectively punish everybody you feel like because someone who might be part of that group might have commited a crime. That’s bullshit! I’m **all for** curtailing the activities of those who were **causing** the problem, but simply having a penis does not mean you’re causing the problem! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/87 "2005-01-19T11:12:12Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > _ **Neither have the women!** _ Still, you would have us become, in effect, prisoners in our own homes. Versus locking all the men up after dark? You betcha. Your sense of security is not worth my civil rights, sorry. > [@Siege](#): > > You really don’t get how obnoxious and objectionable this is, do you? No, I do. I just think that trying to turn around and somehow punish everybody with a penis is bigoted and idiotic not to mention a violation of civil liberties. > [@Siege](#): > > Actually, to me, it’s creepily reminiscent of Margaret Atwood’s _The Handmaid’s Tale_ in which women are required to walk in pairs because it’s considered unsafe for them to walk alone. Never read that. Still isn’t right to punish innocent people because some guilty people also happen to have a Y chromosome. > [@Siege](#): > > I’m female and a loner by nature. I’ve also always had more men friends than women. Even when I was at college with my best girl friend, she lived in a different dorm for the first two years. You sound like a cool girl, just figured I’d throw that in since this thread is getting… heated. I’m not throwing any rhetorical punches at you, although, I do think that your callous disregard of my rights is shocking and sad. > [@Siege](#): > > Requiring that I only go out at night unless accompanied by a woman would have been a major inconvenience, especially when I was working a shift which started at 6:00 am at the school cafeteria. Exactly, which is why I don’t support any legislation to force you to do anything. You should be able to walk alone across campus if you really want. Is it safe? Nope, not always. Should we limit the rights of perfectly law abiding men because you can’t walk across campus in perfect safety? Nope. > [@Siege](#): > > Hell, my roommate complained enough about me turning on enough light to get dressed by. No _way_ would she have accompanied me to work and, even if she did, how would she get back? I’m sure that the safety challenges inherent in being a woman are numerous and difficult. I am sorry for any hardship you bear as a part of your life. That still doesn’t give you the right to punish me, a non-rapist, non-criminal. > [@Siege](#): > > A tiny fraction of men cannot control themselves, therefore all women must restrict themselves. How can that possibly be right? I have no idea. A tiny fraction of men and women can’t help but murder and steal, therefore all people must have locks on their doors. How can this possibly be right? > [@Siege](#): > > By the way, last week two men were on trial for shooting and paralyzing a man in a parking garage as part of a mugging. Not once during that trial did I hear anyone suggest that he shouldn’t have been in that parking garage or that he should have asked for an escort to his car, That’s because men are not often attacked in those places. Women are. Come on! > [@Siege](#): > > although I’m pretty sure the latter would have prevented that. Criminals tend to be cowards. Maybe we should have men walk in pairs in parking garages? Let me tell you something, as a man. If I felt my safety was in danger and I couldn’t walk alone in a parking lot, you better damn well believe I’d do my best to have someone with me. But two men shooting a man in a garage does not a pattern make, nor a risk factor. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/88 "2005-01-19T11:20:45Z")
Just to make something perfectly clear. I’ve never robbed anybody, never raped anybody, never killed anybody, never hit anybody unprovoked, never abused a woman, etc… If you claim the right to limit men’s freedoms because some men commit crimes, you are saying that you have the right to limit **my** freedom. And I will respond to that as I would any other attack upon my civil liberties. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/89 "2005-01-19T11:26:26Z")
The thing is, only one person in this thread has suggested limiting what men can do. When word of a rapist gets out, no one suggests limiting what men do, only what women do. Also, as I noted earlier, since women are far more likely to be raped by someone they know, they may at more risk of being raped if they ask someone they know slightly to escort them than they would be walking alone. As I said at the beginning of this thread, reality stinks. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/90 "2005-01-19T11:32:49Z")
You know, something just occured to me. There are two pieces of advice women are commonly given. If you want to avoid rape: [ol] [li]Don’t walk home alone. Ask for an escort.[/li][li]Don’t invite a man back to your home unless you plan on having sex with him.[/li][/ol] They seem directly contradictory, although a woman living in a secure building could be escorted to the door of her building but not her apartment. I’ll admit that date rapes are blamed on misunderstandings and, while I may be completely tactless, even I wouldn’t say “I want you to walk me home because I don’t feel safe, but I’m not going to have sex with you.” Among other things, I wouldn’t want to insult the poor fellow. The thing is, once again, it seems to me that no matter what the woman does, if she gets raped, she gets blamed for not taking proper precautions. That’s not right. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/91 "2005-01-19T11:45:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That’s because they **had no idea which men were causing the problem!!!** > You can NOT collectively punish everybody you feel like because someone who might be part of that group might have commited a crime. That’s bullshit! I’m **all for** curtailing the activities of those who were **causing** the problem, but simply having a penis does not mean you’re causing the problem! All I know is, the problem didn’t start until men came onto the campus. It should have been looked at as a matter of, **some** men were committing rape; therefore, steps should have been taken to keep men out of a position where they could accost women. I am sick to fucking death of this “Well, there will always be men who rape, and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them from trying.” Granted, this was something that happened in the sixties, long before terms like 'acquaintance rape" and “no means no” had even been coined. But even today, I wonder if security guards on college campuses stop to ask men what they’re doing out as often as they warn women that they shouldn’t be out. And what do you mean, “no idea which men”? I’m sure some of the women were able to identify their attackers. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/92 "2005-01-19T11:56:40Z")
Ah missed this one. > [@margin](#): > > What you’re missing is that men have the luxury of not needing to protect themselves as much as do women. Bricker noted that missing from his experience was the tone of grim satisfaction. Um, no. What’re you’re missing is the fact that men have this luxury is fucking irrelevant. Should women be totally safe to walk the streets all night long? Sure. Should we somehow restrict innocent men’s rights because they can’t? Over my dead body. Oh, and you can shove that grim satisfaction up your ass, as no matter how many men are jerks to women who’ve been raped, you **still** don’t get to restrict my rights. > [@margin](#): > > Straw man; the walk through the dark alley. Stereotype. How far back do we go to blame the woman? She chose to leave the house that day? She chose to wear that outfit? It’s not a strawman you idiot! I am pointing out that in certain situations there are certain risk factors. Walthrough through Harlam at night, especially if you’re white, is a risk factor. Going down a dark alley alone is a risk factor for a woman. Do all rapes happen like that? No, and I’ve never said as much, your lack of reading comp isn’t my fault or my problem. > [@margin](#): > > ``` > The dark part of town straw man again and a threat to toss around adjectives. How nice. You don't know what women need to do or how many do it? Then why object when someone says what women need and do? > > ``` It’s not a strawman you mental midget! Walking alone at night is a risk factor for some women in some locations. Yeesh. And yes, I threatened to toss around adjectives, and now I am, fool. And, by the way, I’m not objecting when women say what they have to do to keep safe. I’m pointing out that being alone in a bad part of town at night is a risk factor if you’re white, black, male, female, gay, straight, whatever. Ignore this in favor of painting me as… whatever you seem to be trying to paint me as. > [@margin](#): > > I can’t see my quote, but my thinking goes something like this. Rape is at the end of a spectrum of sexist behavior directed at women.Want to fight it? Start at the beginning. Riiiiiight. The beginning… because men are currently taught that rape is just dandy. > [@margin](#): > > Men evidently feel entitled to a safe world that they can control to a degree not available to women. Misandristic bitch. You better believe that I don’t feel ‘entitled’ to anything, nor do I feel that my safety should have anything to do with anybody else’s. Sorry if you don’t like the fact that men aren’t the target of rape, but, seriously, fuck you. > [@margin](#): > > This is akin to Golda Meir’s comment when a number of rapes occurred. Someone proposed a curfew on women. Her response? “They’re not the ones committing the rapes.” We as a society demand that women curfew themselves. Also? You’re not entitled to psychoanalyze me. Do it again, and I’ll ignore further posts. I don’t care about Golda Meir except to agree that putting a curfew on women is wrong. That doesn’t mean it’s right to put one on men. And, yes, I am entitled to psychoanalyze you, because you’re a nutty fool who sees a military commander protecting his female troops as somehow punishing them. > [@margin](#): > > Could you make up your mind? “Not all women” protect themselves, yet here is the assumption that ‘doing harm’ will happen. A very real fact? How real? To what degree? I have made up my mind, you just don’t have any reading comprehension skills. Whoopsie? I’m sure that not all women take the same steps to protect themselves, no. And yes, even protecting yourself doesn’t change the **very real chance** that someone might want to do you harm. Can you hold these too ideas in your head without going on a spate of man-bashing? > [@margin](#): > > To a degree of self-curfew? Burkas? What? And if rape is a ‘very real fact’ then it’s common—but where are the anti-rape workshops directed at MEN? To whatever degree you decide on to keep yourself safe! I’m not about to legislate your behavior. Yes, rape is a very real fact, that doesn’t make it common. Lou Gherig’s disease is a very real fact, but that aint common. Pancreatic cancer is a very real fact, but that aint common. And, you misandristic bitch, there aren’t workshops directed at men because **normal men are not pathological antisocial scum who rape women!** You’d be preaching to the choir, but you can’t seem to understand that. > [@margin](#): > > Exceedingly naive. And blaming the victim, too. They must not have been properly protecting themselves. Listen you dumb bitch, I’m not blaming any victim. But if I leave my front door unlocked, and someone comes into my house, I have facilitated their crime. The fact that you seem to want to ignore this… yeesh, I have no idea. No, not all women who’re raped could’ve prevented it. But, **yes** , in some cases a change in behavior would have. Can’t deal with reality? Tough shit. > [@margin](#): > > ``` > It means you're using another straw man. Female rape of men, according to Brownmiller, is so statistically rare as to be an anomaly, factoring out child abuse. > > ``` You don’t know what the word strawman means, do you? Furthermore, who cares if it’s statistically rare? It happens. > [@margin](#): > > Don’t let that stop you from trying to introduce an irrelevancy into the discussion. We’re discussing male-on-female rape, and what women should do to preent it happening to them–and how much is reasonable to demand of them. Irrelevancy? You mean, disproving your bullshit rhetoric is irrelevant? If you say so idiot. Now, you don’t have to demand jack shit of women! They can make their own choices, and decide what risk factors they’re okay with. Jesus, why is this such a hard concept! Don’t want to modify your behavior? **DON’T!** > [@margin](#): > > ``` > Perilously close to a straw man. > > ``` You have no idea what a strawman is, or an analogy, Did you fail out of highschool or something? > [@margin](#): > > To be analgous to what we’re discussing here, it would have to be more like: Robbers keep robbing, and yet people still keep wearing good clothes and jewelry outside of their houses in broad daylight. Careless bastards. How dare they actually wear jewelry and have money in their wallets, and live normal lives. No you dumb bitch, we’re talking about risk factors. Leaving your door open is a risk factor to being robbed. There are certain risk factors for being raped. Deal with reality you lunatic. > [@margin](#): > > If they don’t want to get robbed, they should wear sackcloth and ashes. If they do get robbed, they should just have protected themselves better. The robber said they just gave him the stuff Depending on how seriously a family wanted security, it’d be their choice. They would indeed be safer not owning any material goods so they can’t be stolen. But, then again, maybe they’d decide to live their lives without fear. But that doesn’t mean you can ignore valid risk factors because you feel like it. > [@margin](#): > > . They didn’t say no. They must have wanted to get robbed. That’s analagous??? Who on earth has suggested anywhere near this thread that women who’re raped “wanted to get” raped? > [@margin](#): > > Men don’t have to worry about their security to the intimate degree that is demanded of women, a point which the OP made and which you have strenuously avoided seeing ever since. Because it’s irrelevant your misandristic bitch! I know you’re jealous of the fact that men don’t have to worry about their security as much, but, tough shit. It’s not my fault you’re not safe, so don’t bring up the fact that I’m more safe as if it means **anything.** What an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/93 "2005-01-19T12:01:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **margin** said: > What you’re missing is that men have the luxury of not needing to protect themselves as much as do women. Considering that men are **much** more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than women are, I think this is utter bullshit. > [@](#): > > Straw man; the walk through the dark alley. Stereotype. How far back do we go to blame the woman? She chose to leave the house that day? She chose to wear that outfit? Look, you fucking feminist moron, nobody is blaming a woman who gets raped. What we are doing, and what you refuse to do, is acknowledge that there are certain avoidable situations that put one at increased risk for being the victim of a crime and suggesting that perhaps, when possible, it is smart to avoid those situations. This goes for both men and women. > [@](#): > > Preventing rape would mean preventing the things that lead up to it. Which are? > [@](#): > > And raising men differently? Men evidently feel entitled to a safe world that they can control to a degree not available to women. Oh but they don’t, **sven**. The average man is at far, far more risk of becoming the victim of a violent crime than you are. > [@](#): > > We as a society demand that women curfew themselves. No, moron, we don’t. **You** started barking about that. > [@](#): > > Female rape of men, according to Brownmiller, is so statistically rare as to be an anomaly, factoring out child abuse. According to Brownmiller? Someone with an _obvious_ bias and sketchy research methods? Yeah, sure sparky, it’s bloody likely we’ll just accept that statement. > [@](#): > > Men don’t have to worry about their security to the intimate degree that is demanded of women, a point which the OP made and which you have strenuously avoided seeing ever since. Yes, you fucking moron, they do have to worry about their security because they are _more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than women are_. The difference is that they don’t bitch and moan that being told to be aware of their surroundings and not take stupid risks with their lives is misandrist. > [@](#): > > **Little Nemo** said: > Here’s a real fact. Women who go jogging while wearing radio headphones are twenty times as likely to be attacked as women who don’t. Criminals have admitted they target women wearing headphones because they’re more vulnerable. CITE? > [@](#): > > **margin** said: > Why is it acceptable to demand that women curfew themselves----because they might get attacked—while men who might attack them are granted all the freedom they want? Who the fuck is demanding that? You’re the one who keeps bringing all these ‘curfews’ and ‘restrictions’ and ‘giving things up’ ideas. > [@](#): > > **Siege** said: > How is it wrong to restrict the freedom of men by telling them they cannot go out unless accompanied by a woman, yet sensible to restrict the freedom of women by telling them they cannot go out unless accompanied by another woman? Unless he’s _forcing_ them to walk in pairs, he’s not restricting the rights of anyone. He’s merely pointing out that if there have been a series of stranger-in-the-bushes type of attacks of people who are out alone at night in your area, it’s probably smart to use that old adage ‘safety in numbers.’ If a lot of guys who were walking alone got attacked, I’d advise _them_ that they’d likely be safer in a group. > [@](#): > > **Rilchaim** said: > She said society, not you personally. Then she should prove it instead of just repeating what her women’s studies professor felt. > [@](#): > > But women are always being advised to modify their behavior, while no one is telling men to modify theirs. They _are_ telling men to modify their behavior so as not to become the victims of crime. Your (general) personal safety is your (general) responsibility. This applies to everyone, male and female. > [@](#): > > Men came onto the campus and caused problems, so the women, who were there first, had their rights restricted. No attempt whatsoever to curtail the men who were causing the problem. Some criminals showed up, so how do you curtail just _their_ rights without punishing the vast majority of men who did absolutely nothing to warrant it? You won’t get an argument that a curfew policy for women was wrong, but I’ll never agree that giving one to _all_ of the men would be right either. > [@](#): > > **Siege** said: > Not once during that trial did I hear anyone suggest that he shouldn’t have been in that parking garage or that he should have asked for an escort to his car, although I’m pretty sure the latter would have prevented that. Maybe he should have. Was the parking garage in a known high crime area? Was it dark? Have there been other incidents at that parking garage? Because if so, he was foolish to be in a spot that made him an easy target. If not, then I’d say he was just the unlucky victim. Increasing safety by eliminating unnecessary risk does not mean eliminating all risk. Not for anyone. But that doesn’t mean nobody should try to lower their own risk, right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/94 "2005-01-19T12:06:01Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > The thing is, only one person in this thread has suggested limiting what men can do. My apologies if I misread your posts as supporting her position. > [@Siege](#): > > When word of a rapist gets out, no one suggests limiting what men do, only what women do. That’s because men aren’t at risk and women are. > [@Siege](#): > > Also, as I noted earlier, since women are far more likely to be raped by someone they know, they may at more risk of being raped if they ask someone they know slightly to escort them than they would be walking alone. Sucks, and I’m sorry for you. > [@Siege](#): > > As I said at the beginning of this thread, reality stinks. It does, but… so? Or is this just about saying how women have it hard? Y’all do, must be nervewracking a lot of the time. But, so? Women have to be careful of rapists, people with money need to be careful about thieves, etc… Sucks, sucks, sucks. But that’s life. > [@Siege](#): > > The thing is, once again, it seems to me that no matter what the woman does, if she gets raped, she gets blamed for not taking proper precautions. That’s not right. See, I’m not blaming anybody. There’s a difference between attempting to educate someone as to how to keep safer in the future, and blaming them. If a friend gets into a car accident and I suggest a new car with better safety features, I’m not blaming them for anything. (And just to make it totally clear, in either the case of rape or a car accident I wouldn’t ‘rub it in’ while the person was emotionally vulnerable. But you’d better believe that if a girlfriend/daughter of mine was attacked, I’d do my best to make sure she knew Aikido. Do with that what you will.) And, does it suck that you’re not ‘supposed to’ walk home alone, and yet, the man who walks you home might be a rapist? Yeep. But, yet again, knowing the people who you walk home with can help cut down on that risk factor. And yet again, pointing that out isn’t blaming anybody, it’s trying to educate someone. And, hell, I’m not even saying that I know all the risk factors for a woman, or that I’m right about them. But some do exist, and it is in a woman’s best interest to not be ignorant about them. No matter how fair, or difficult, or downright impossible certain situations are. (Oddly enough, I think you and I may agree sorta?) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/95 "2005-01-19T12:11:11Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > All I know is, the problem didn’t start until men came onto the campus. So it becomes likely that one of the new male students, or more than one, are rapists. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > It should have been looked at as a matter of, **some** men were committing rape; therefore, steps should have been taken to keep men out of a position where they could accost women. And that’d be a step towards tyrany and a restriction of men’s civil liberties. Steps should have been taken to make sure that \*\* the men who were raping women\*\* weren’t in a position where they could. The rest of the men should’ve been free as a bird. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > I am sick to fucking death of this “Well, there will always be men who rape, and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them from trying.” Sure you can try to stop men from being rapists. But in the meanwhile, I’d suggest that you try to protect yourself. Your call, after all. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > Granted, this was something that happened in the sixties, long before terms like 'acquaintance rape" and “no means no” had even been coined. But even today, I wonder if security guards on college campuses stop to ask men what they’re doing out as often as they warn women that they shouldn’t be out. I doubt they do. All women are at risk for rape. Most men are not out doing bad stuff at night. Thus, warning women makes much more sense than checking up on all the men. But, likewise, sure security guards should investigate suspicious men. Just not all of them simply because they’re men. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > And what do you mean, “no idea which men”? I’m sure some of the women were able to identify their attackers. If that’s the case, why weren’t they arrested? I took the curfew as an indication that the rapists had not been caught. If the rapists were caught, there would be no question of safety anymore. Moreoever, if they knew which men were raping women, they’d have no right to fuck with the law abiding men, right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/96 "2005-01-19T12:17:49Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Unless he’s _forcing_ them to walk in pairs, he’s not restricting the rights of anyone. He’s merely pointing out that if there have been a series of stranger-in-the-bushes type of attacks of people who are out alone at night in your area, it’s probably smart to use that old adage ‘safety in numbers.’ I have to disagree with this, expecially since it seems it was indeed a military order. If the commanding officer noticed that everybody with red hair was at higher risk of being attacked, he’d be perfectly justified for sending along protection for those with red hair. It’s not like you have the freedom to do whatever you want anyways in the military, and if an officer decides that the best way to keep you safe is with someone watching your back, then so be it. After all, it’s the military and you don’t decide how safe you want to be. Charging a pillbox or being confined to your barracks, both can be ordered. Pointing out the actions of a military officer to protect his female soldiers doesn’t even get at greater society anyways, as in most cases nobody has the authority to ‘order’ a woman to walk with someone else, anyways. But , anyway, it’s about keeping them safe, not restricting their right to put themself into danger. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/97 "2005-01-19T12:23:30Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Considering that men are much more likely to be the victim of a violent crime than women are… Would we all agree here that crime-avoidance strategies feature in statements or discussions concerning rape far more than in those concerning other crimes _despite_ this statistic? If so, what might be the underlying cause or attitude behind such a disproportionate frequency? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/98 "2005-01-19T12:34:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And that’d be a step towards tyrany and a restriction of men’s civil liberties. > Steps should have been taken to make sure that \*\* the men who were raping women\*\* weren’t in a position where they could. The rest of the men should’ve been free as a bird. Look, I’ve been in situations, both as a teenager and as an adult, where teenagers were curfewed or otherwise restricted because **some** teenagers committed vandalism and such. “Hey, those kids are grouping up; I have to go tell them to step off.” “Do what you have to do and then leave.” “Be off the streets by ten.” Fair? No. Tyrannical? Maybe. But it kept teenagers out of a position where they **could** cause a disruption, **whether or not they had done so previously.** > [@](#): > > Sure you can try to stop men from being rapists. But in the meanwhile, I’d suggest that you try to protect yourself. Your call, after all. I do protect myself. I just wish the responsibility wasn’t **entirely** on my shoulders. > [@](#): > > I doubt they do. All women are at risk for rape. Most men are not out doing bad stuff at night. Thus, warning women makes much more sense than checking up on all the men. But, likewise, sure security guards should investigate suspicious men. Just not all of them simply because they’re men. Fair enough. But whether or not “all of them” should be investigated depends on how thorough an investigation you’re talking about. > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, why weren’t they arrested? I took the curfew as an indication that the rapists had not been caught. If the rapists were caught, there would be no question of safety anymore. Moreoever, if they knew which men were raping women, they’d have no right to fuck with the law abiding men, right? Some of them might have been caught, but what happened then? Were they expelled, arrested, or did they get a slap on the wrist? If the last, then that would have sent a message to other male students that they had little to fear from authority. And the number of rapes would increase. And you’re making it sound as if there’s such a clear demarcation between “rapists” and “law-abiding men” that it would be easy to isolate the former group. Not so. You can’t tell a potential rapist just by looking at him, which is a key point in a lot of rape-awareness advice. Again, some very mixed messages are being given. 1. A woman can be raped at any time. 2. But not all men are rapists. So who the fuck is committing these rapes? Men! Which men? We don’t know. So how do we know which ones **aren’t** potential rapists? Until we have an infallible means of identifying potential rapists, which will be never, we’ll simply have to regard all men with just enough suspicion so that they won’t feel that they can commit rape and get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/99 "2005-01-19T12:45:34Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Would we all agree here that crime-avoidance strategies feature in statements or discussions concerning rape far more than in those concerning other crimes _despite_ this statistic? If so, what might be the underlying cause or attitude behind such a disproportionate frequency? The desire to protect women. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/100 "2005-01-19T12:57:03Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Look, I’ve been in situations, both as a teenager and as an adult, where teenagers were curfewed or otherwise restricted because **some** teenagers committed vandalism and such. “Hey, those kids are grouping up; I have to go tell them to step off.” “Do what you have to do and then leave.” “Be off the streets by ten.” Fair? No. Tyrannical? Maybe. But it kept teenagers out of a position where they **could** cause a disruption, **whether or not they had done so previously.** Teenagers are the responsibility of their parents, and if minors, they don’t have the same rights I do. I’m over 18. I’m a united states citizen. I will not be treated like a teen who’s being grounded. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > I do protect myself. I just wish the responsibility wasn’t **entirely** on my shoulders. Um… erunh? Everybody is the ultimate and absolute guardian of their own safety. At the end of the day, your safety does entirely rest on you, and so does mine. Until we eliminte crime, society will be a dangerous place for some of us, if not all of us. I mean, you can put more cops on the streets, educate children in sex ed (which they already do), carry a can of mace… but at the end of the day, it’s still your responsibility to keep yourself safe. I’m sorry it’s hard to be a woman with regards to rape-safety. Honesty I am. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > Fair enough. But whether or not “all of them” should be investigated depends on how thorough an investigation you’re talking about. I’ll see your fair enough and raise you a sounds-good-except… You still don’t get the right to stop me on campus and ask what I’m doing if the only suspicious thing I’m doing is having a penis. I have a right to enjoy the night air without having some rent a cop hassle me. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > Some of them might have been caught, but what happened then? Were they expelled, arrested, or did they get a slap on the wrist? If the last, then that would have sent a message to other male students that they had little to fear from authority. And the number of rapes would increase. Agreed, but we just don’t know. And since no evidence of them being caught was put forward, I assume that they were not. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > And you’re making it sound as if there’s such a clear demarcation between “rapists” and “law-abiding men” that it would be easy to isolate the former group. Not so. You can’t tell a potential rapist just by looking at him, which is a key point in a lot of rape-awareness advice. Never said nor implied that you can tell a rapist by looking at them. Can’t do that anymore than you can tell a law abiding man just by looking at him. I’m simply saying that some men commit crimes, and some don’t. As such, treating all men as rapists, or potential rapists, means that you end up treating a lot of law abiding citizens as criminals or potential criminals. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > Again, some very mixed messages are being given. > > 1. A woman can be raped at any time. > 2. But not all men are rapists. This doesn’t seem like a mixed message, but a statement of fact. “Surfers can be eaten by a shark at any time. But not all sharks are man-eaters.” > [@Rilchiam](#): > > So who the fuck is committing these rapes? Men! Which men? We don’t know. So how do we know which ones **aren’t** potential rapists? Innocent until proven guilty? > [@Rilchiam](#): > > Until we have an infallible means of identifying potential rapists, which will be never, we’ll simply have to regard all men with just enough suspicion so that they won’t feel that they can commit rape and get away with it. That does seem to be a valid strategy for women, however harsh it may be. The problem comes when you attempt to put legal teeth into that. You have no right to treat me as a rapist or a potential rapist. None. Look at me however you wish, but my civil liberties are staying intact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339.md?page=6)