# So, which part of my life do I give up to avoid being raped? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 18, 2005, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339 "2005-01-18T09:27:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/161 "2005-01-19T23:57:06Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > From what I’ve seen of the available statistics, women are at far greater risk of being raped by someone they know than by a stranger. To overlook it; to say we can’t change that or we’re at a loss how to approach that is something I find a bit unnerving. Well… it is very hard to change. Men are already educated that rape is wrong, so more education probably won’t help. In my opinion, rape is a pathology, a sickness, and a crime. There may indeed be no way to eliminate rape from the population, just like you can’t eliminate Trisomy 23. Mutations will always pop up, no matter what you do. So, while we’re working on changing, however slowly, this situation with date rape, we can certainly teach women to be as prepared and safe as possible for assault rape. Are we agreed on this point at least? Education about risk factors, not legislation and curefws? Self directed behavior and personal assesment of trade offs? ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/162 "2005-01-20T00:24:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well… it is very hard to change. Men are already educated that rape is wrong, so more education probably won’t help. In my opinion, rape is a pathology, a sickness, and a crime. There may indeed be no way to eliminate rape from the population, just like you can’t eliminate Trisomy 23. Mutations will always pop up, no matter what you do. > > So, while we’re working on changing, however slowly, this situation with date rape, we can certainly teach women to be as prepared and safe as possible for assault rape. > > Are we agreed on this point at least? Education about risk factors, not legislation and curefws? Self directed behavior and personal assesment of trade offs? I can agree with you on the last point, but not the first one. If rapists are born that way, and there is nothing that a family or society can do about it, there would be no variation in rape rates across societies. Possibly some racial variation (I’d love to see a researcher with the balls to study _that_ one), but no societal variation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/163 "2005-01-20T00:34:02Z")
> [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > If rapists are born that way, and there is nothing that a family or society can do about it, there would be no variation in rape rates across societies. Not necessarily. There may very well be both societal and organic variables, maybe operating in conjunction or seperately. Perhaps, for example, a survival instinct (rape a woman and we kill you) might trigger a biological reaction so that a rapist would value their survival over a planned rape. I don’t know, I just think that, more likely than not, the causes of rape are not solely societal. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/164 "2005-01-20T02:52:42Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > 1. What constant refrain? You have to look far and wide to find people saying what you seem to think is the norm. Maybe it’s time to re-evaluate what you think society’s attitude towards rape is. > > 2. What you seem to think is blaming the victim - don’t walk home alone at night, etc - is not particular to rape. If I was walking through the bad part of town in a three piece suit asking if anyone had change for a hundred, and I got mugged, the response I would be met with is “Of course you got mugged you silly bastard!” That doesn’t mean people wouldn’t hold the mugger accountable. Wanted to address this, then went home and forgot. I know what you are saying is not particular to rape. It’s just good sense. Unfortunately, it is seen by many rape victims as further responsibility of what they should have done to avoid being raped. It more than likely isn’t meant that way, but what is heard is “Well, of COURSE you got raped, it’s your own damn fault, what the hell were you doing in that part of town at 10pm/2am/4am/whenever the hell ??” As if being there was enough to get the victim raped and she should have expected it. Again, I understand it isn’t meant in that vein, but that is how it sounds. Mainly because most victims do feel some responsibility for having been raped. Every single one of the victims that I’ve treated has felt to some extent that she was responsible, and could somehow have avoided being raped if only she had done something differently. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/165 "2005-01-20T03:45:56Z")
> [@SusanStoHelit](#): > > Is this your first encounter with **catsix, Maureen?** No, but it’s mine. Wow and whoa. I’m learning fast. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/166 "2005-01-20T04:17:19Z")
A couple of links. This: [http://www.theennead.com/amptoons/blog/archives/2004/12/09/various-links-to-various-places/](http://www.theennead.com/amptoons/blog/archives/2004/12/09/various-links-to-various-places/) links to a DOJ study that found that the conviction rate for rape was rediculously low. It got almost no coverage in the newspapers when it came out. Here’s the actual report: [http://www.mith2.umd.edu/WomensStudies/GenderIssues/Violence+Women/ResponsetoRape/](http://www.mith2.umd.edu/WomensStudies/GenderIssues/Violence+Women/ResponsetoRape/) This: [http://www.theennead.com/amptoons/blog/archives/category/mary-koss-controversy/](http://www.theennead.com/amptoons/blog/archives/category/mary-koss-controversy/) talks about how the 1 in four statistic constantly gets misquoted and misused, usually by people like catsix. This speculates on how many rapists there are on college campuses. [http://www.theennead.com/amptoons/blog/archives/2004/05/05/a-further-thought-on-all-these-rape-statistics/](http://www.theennead.com/amptoons/blog/archives/2004/05/05/a-further-thought-on-all-these-rape-statistics/) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/167 "2005-01-20T04:47:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **elanorigby** said: > Now, there’s a reasoned, well supported argument for you. It’s my opinion of the people who buy into the prepetual victimhood statements of feminazis (aka misandrists) such as Koss, Brownmiller, Dworkin, MacKinnon, Warshaw, Gandy, Greer, Friedan, Steinem, et al. People who use shoddy research with carefully worded surveys in order to produce the kind of answers they want in order to garner attention and need in order to not go out of business. If you have a problem with my demand for something better than a survey designed to create a desired statistic and an ability for those who claim to have a genuine interest in violent crimes to see through it, then you are no better than those who created it. > [@](#): > > Yep, every woman who is appalled at rape and angry at the restrictions put on her freedom has got to be misandrist and a “feminazi”. What restrictions? You are still free to go where you please and do as you please provided you are not in the custody of the criminal justice system or a member of the active military, are you not? So, you’re going to have to prove that every day civilian women who are not in prison are under some kind of ‘restriction’. You can’t just claim they are and have me believe it. > [@](#): > > Listen to Rush, much, do we? Actually, I don’t listen to Rush. I don’t do talk radio, ever. I listen to Jim & Randy on WDVE 102.5 in the mornings and then either WRRK’s classic rock or WDVE’s mix of classic and modern the rest of the time that I’m in the car. When not in the car, I don’t do radio. > [@](#): > > **Maureen** said: > To which bigots are you referring? I believe I stated that already, but just to make it really clear for you, I’ll say it again. Anyone who states that ‘Men are rapists.’ and/or believes that a man who feels that he has been demonized or unfairly labeled by this statement is doing so out of guilt that he might become a rapist is a bigot. > [@](#): > > This is a very touchy subject for a lot of people, and I feel we’ve made some wonderful progress with it. Progress for people like you will only come when you’ve converted everyone to your ideology. > [@](#): > > You don’t even bother to read my cites, but you reserve the right to judge them, sight unseen? I’ve read it. It’s the same misandrist tripe it was before, and that’s not going to change. You seem to assume that because I disagree with what a bunch of feminists think that I’ve never read any of it. On the contrary, I’ve read far, far too much of it. > [@](#): > > That’s your opinion. I’ve provided cites that say differently. The opinion of a feminist is hardly an ironclad cite. It’s blinded by bias. > [@](#): > > Yes, I do. This site provides many reasons. While you seem to believe it is sex driven and sex driven only, the American Academy of Forensic Sciences disagrees: Your own cite says that the offender gets sexual gratification out of what he does to the victim. To **the offender** it is about sex. And obviously it means something other than a mugging would to a woman or we’d also have mugging crisis hotlines and not just rape crisis hotlines. > [@](#): > > Shall we try again? I think we can all agree the AAFS is not a “feminazi” organization. You might. I don’t. > [@](#): > > I am just amazed that anyone could be that full of hate and anger all the time. Guess you’ve never read anything Dworkin wrote, have you? > [@](#): > > **KellyM** said: > catsix hates all other women for being different from her. No, I hate bigots. Although if it makes you feel better to think I hate all women, you go right on ahead believing that. I have no reason to defend myself to **you**. > [@](#): > > **elanorigby** said: > Wow and whoa. I’m learning fast. Learning that I didn’t eat up the shit ‘touchy feely’ soft-on-research crap that passes for ‘women’s studies’ but instead opted for the hard and definitive proof of something like engineering? I could see how that’d frustrate someone who did opt for feelings over proof. > [@](#): > > **margin** said: > talks about how the 1 in four statistic constantly gets misquoted and misused, usually by people like catsix. Yeah, if you actually require **valid** statistical research from a feminist, they just bitch that you’re ‘misusing’ their made up numbers. Hell, I’ve even had them tell me that applying actual mathematics to their studies is a misogynistic action because it ‘forces them to comply with a patriarchal system’ known as mathematics. I mean really, how _dare_ I ever demand more proof than a touchy feely test with a deliberately misleading survey at the core of it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/168 "2005-01-20T05:07:51Z")
**Margin** : Misquoted and misused? (I like the ad hominem). Your own cite says that the actual rate of rape is about one in eight, with attempted rape making up the other four. Don’t get me wrong, attempted rape is a crime deserving prosecution like anything else, but it is disingenuous, at best, to claim that there is a 1-in-4 for rape. Such debating tactics are not a good omen, eh? I’d also like to see the survey questions, sample size, etc… And, this study about college rape… yeeeeeesh. Again, I don’t have acess to the actual data, methodology, etc… But, several very valid points: Pointing out that it’s an invalid sample size to generalize to the larger population is not an “anit-feminist” tactic, it’s a response of logic and statistics. Whatever insinuations of ‘wanting to ignore the data we have.’ to the contrary. The first and most obvious complication with this study is that, if anything, it is applicable to college culture. Attempting to extrapolate a bunch of away-from-home-for-the-first-time-beer-stealing-fake-ID-gettin’ people’s data to the general populace is always a dicey move, wouldn’t you agree? Otherwise, one might conclude that drinking till you puke is **frighteningly common and a societal problem!** This is not to trivialize rape, just the methodology used to support this particular study. The conclusions may very well be true, but so far I’ve seen the “real” figure shrink from 25% (75 million women) to 12% (37 million five hundred thousand women). Now I don’t know about y’all, but that disapearance of millions of people from one ‘fact’ to the other ‘fact’ suggests that someone’s playing fast and loose with the ‘facts’. You will pardon me if I now refuse to grant total credibility to arguments which rely upon bogus “reality”. > [@your cite](#): > > My conclusion: Maybe the “real” number is that 2% of men commit rape sometime in their life, and 8% of women are raped. Maybe it’s more like 8% and 20%. We’ll never know for sure. Yes, the “real” number is something, and if we don’t conduct proper studies, we don’t get proper results. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/169 "2005-01-20T05:18:00Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Anyone who states that ‘Men are rapists.’ and/or believes that a man who feels that he has been demonized or unfairly labeled by this statement is doing so out of guilt that he might become a rapist is a bigot. Well, I’m sorry, but the vast majority of rapes are not perpetrated by small furry beings from Alpha Centauri. They are perpetrated by males of the specie Homo Sapien. In other words: men. Whether or not _you_ choose to believe that is entirely up to you. > [@catsix](#): > > Progress for people like you will only come when you’ve converted everyone to your ideology. Yup. I believe we should prosecute rapists, educate as much as possible and, as **eleanorigby** said, find the underlying reasons for rape and work to fix them. Ain’t it awful? :rolleyes: > [@catsix](#): > > I’ve read it. It’s the same misandrist tripe it was before, and that’s not going to change. You seem to assume that because I disagree with what a bunch of feminists think that I’ve never read any of it. On the contrary, I’ve read far, far too much of it. I don’t know what you’ve read to lead you to these ridiculous conclusions. That’s why I keep asking for cites. Which, BTW, you have yet to provide. Shit or get off the pot, already. > [@](#): > > Yeah, if you actually require valid statistical research from a feminist, they just bitch that you’re ‘misusing’ their made up numbers. Hell, I’ve even had them tell me that applying actual mathematics to their studies is a misogynistic action because it ‘forces them to comply with a patriarchal system’ known as mathematics. I mean really, how dare I ever demand more proof than a touchy feely test with a deliberately misleading survey at the core of it. This from the woman who thinks the American Academy for Forensic Studies is a feminazi organization? Honey…up the dosage. Look, you may or may not have a point. However, I don’t see any reason why I should give your silly assed opinion any respect without cites or proof. As far as I can tell, you’re just an angry little girl who thinks that everyone else is on the same experience and intellectual level as one of the freshman classes you apparently T.A. Hate to break it to ya, honey, but such is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/170 "2005-01-20T05:34:33Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Well, I’m sorry, but the vast majority of rapes are not perpetrated by small furry beings from Alpha Centauri. They are perpetrated by males of the specie Homo Sapien. In other words: men. Whether or not _you_ choose to believe that is entirely up to you. Will you _please_ cut this bigoted bullshit out? Yes, most women who’re raped are raped by men. However, the fact that most women who’re raped are raped by men is not proof that most men are rapists. Black males, for instance, make up about half the prison population in America. And yet, it would still not be acceptable to say “Black men are criminals.” Now, this is _not_ about race (damnit). This is about the fact that it’s recognized that you shouldn’t be bigoted against folks with darker skin, but males, (and especially white males. And damn, of course, dead white males), can be the object of bigotry freely. To sum up “Men are rapists.” “Black men are criminals.” What, exactly, is the difference? Does it matter if I change it to any other group? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/171 "2005-01-20T05:35:34Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > > [@catsix](#): > > > > Anyone who states that ‘Men are rapists.’ and/or believes that a man who feels that he has been demonized or unfairly labeled by this statement is doing so out of guilt that he might become a rapist is a bigot. > > Well, I’m sorry, but the vast majority of rapes are not perpetrated by small furry beings from Alpha Centauri. They are perpetrated by males of the specie Homo Sapien. In other words: men. Whether or not you choose to believe that is entirely up to you. Women are street whores. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/172 "2005-01-20T05:38:42Z")
Yes, but are the vast majority of street whores women? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/173 "2005-01-20T05:45:19Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Yes, but are the vast majority of street whores women? [url=http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html]yes\*\* > [@](#): > > Average prostitution arrests include 70% females, 20% percent male prostitutes and 10% customers Some women are street whores. The large majority of street whores are women. Women are street whores. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/174 "2005-01-20T05:45:58Z")
If I am communicating myself so badly, I hope I can chalk it up to a bad cold and good cold medicine. I’ll have to try again in a couple of days. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/175 "2005-01-20T05:46:27Z")
[Damn coding monkey not doing it’s job…](http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html) ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/176 "2005-01-20T05:46:37Z")
No. The vast majority of street whores are women. Not all women are street whores. The vast majority of rapists are men. Not all men are rapists. See how that works? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/177 "2005-01-20T05:47:46Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > No. The vast majority of street whores are women. Not all women are street whores. > The vast majority of rapists are men. Not all men are rapists. > > See how that works? Then stop saying men are rapists!!! See how that works? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/178 "2005-01-20T05:48:24Z")
I did’t. Go back and look. I said the vast majority of rapes are perpetrated by men. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/179 "2005-01-20T05:54:27Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > I did’t. Go back and look. I said the vast majority of rapes are perpetrated by men. > [@Maureen](#): > > > [@Catsix](#): > > > > Anyone who states that ‘Men are rapists.’ and/or believes that a man who feels that he has been demonized or unfairly labeled by this statement is doing so out of guilt that he might become a rapist is a bigot. > > Well, I’m sorry, but the vast majority of rapes are not perpetrated by small furry beings from Alpha Centauri. They are perpetrated by males of the specie Homo Sapien. In other words: men. Whether or not you choose to believe that is entirely up to you. In response to the fact that saying “men are rapists” is bigoted, you responded with the above. Can you at least say, now, that saying “men are rapists” is bigoted and false-to-facts, as well as being inflamatory? Unless of course, Women Are Streetwhores. Or ,say, most whores are women, I wonder if most female whores are drug addicts? That’d mean that Women are Drugged Out Street Whores. Right? Men are not rapists, women are not streetwhores. People are defined by their behavior, not someone else’s generalization. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339/180 "2005-01-20T06:01:48Z")
**FInn** , I said most rapes are perpetrated by men. What would you have me do? It’s not bigotry, it’s [fact](http://www.lalabor.com/main/id/114.html), according to the AMA. I am not saying that all men are rapists. I haven’t, and I won’t. Saying that the majority of rapes are committed by men is not the same thing as saying “all men are rapists.” And if you continue to insist on seeing it that way, even though I’ve explained otherwise, then I’d say you’re looking for offense where none is intended. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-which-part-of-my-life-do-i-give-up-to-avoid-being-raped/285339.md?page=10)