# So who first came up with idea that "There is more evidence for Jesus than Ceasar" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403 "2008-10-17T16:52:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/1 "2008-10-17T16:52:18Z")
The original thread was closed, but I’m interested in this, so thought I repost it in this form. For a long time I’ve heard the statement bandied around that “there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than Ceasat” (I remember being taught this as a statment of fact at our church youth group). Its simply a ridiculous claim, there is FAR FAR more evidence for the existence of Caesar than Jesus. What I want to know is who first made this claim, and what justification (if any) did they have for it ? (seeing as anyone with any knowledge of classical writings could have seen it for what it is). ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/2 "2008-10-17T16:59:32Z")
I actually heard it that there was more historical evidence for Jesus than there is for Socrates. Which, whether true or not, is a lot more reasonable. After all, we have actual writings of Ceaser’s. Neither Socrates nor Jesus ever wrote anything down; most of the information we have about them was recorded by their followers. Ceaser, as the storied leader of one of the world’s largest empires, left a bit more of a trace. EDIT: now that I’ve read the other thread, I see the Socrates thing already mentioned there. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/3 "2008-10-17T17:07:52Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I actually heard it that there was more historical evidence for Jesus than there is for Socrates. Which, whether true or not, is a lot more reasonable. After all, we have actual writings of Ceaser’s. Neither Socrates nor Jesus ever wrote anything down; most of the information we have about them was recorded by their followers. I guess that would make sense. The original soundbite might have been “There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than Socrates”, which is a seems a fairly defensible position. Then at some point this got changed to “There is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than Ceasar”, which is not. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/4 "2008-10-17T17:23:55Z")
So I just found [this](http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rubicon.html) online… > [@](#): > > A common argument used in apologetics today involves an **analogy between the crossing of the Rubicon (a stream in what is now northern Italy) by Julius Caesar, and the resurrection of Jesus.** (For a popular account of the former event, see here.) The jist of the argument is, since no one doubts the former, there is no reason to doubt the latter - the premise being that there is as much documentation for one event as for the other. William Lane Craig, for example, says in Reasonable Faith This seems that the original, less ridiculous, (though still dubious IMO) analogy might have between the historicity if Ceasar’s crossing the Rubicon, and the resurrection of Christ. Again, the subetly of what exactly is being compared between Ceasar and Jesus, could have been lost over time. Though the book that is quoted (Reasonable Faith by William Lane) was published in 1994 long after I first heard the “Jesus vs Caesar” thing. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/5 "2008-10-17T17:44:09Z")
I read something where somebody said that there is more evidence for _evolution_ than for Caesar! It’s hard to say whether I agree with that–you’re dealing with completely different kinds of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/6 "2008-10-17T18:30:09Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > This seems that the original, less ridiculous, (though still dubious IMO) analogy might have between the historicity if Ceasar’s crossing the Rubicon, and the resurrection of Christ. The trouble is that, based on other empirical evidence, it seems far more likely that a general will cross a river with his army that that a dead person will come back to life after 3 days buried in a tomb. Many generals have crossed many rivers with many armies throughout history, sometimes with documentation like photographs and movies being taken of them while doing it (though not in Caesar’s time). I’m not aware of good evidence of another person being resurrected after being dead for some days, recently (with better medical technology) or at any time in the past. So, for an unbiased historian to accept the story, there needs to be stronger evidence of the resurrection of Christ than of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/7 "2008-10-17T18:45:04Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > For a long time I’ve heard the statement bandied around that “there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than Caesar” (I remember being taught this as a statement of fact at our church youth group). Its simply a ridiculous claim, there is FAR FAR more evidence for the existence of Caesar than Jesus. > > What I want to know is who first made this claim, and what justification (if any) did they have for it ? (seeing as anyone with any knowledge of classical writings could have seen it for what it is). A Google Book search will yield a 1917 full view article in [a book](http://books.google.com/books?id=x1EXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA61&dq=%22more+evidence%22+jesus+caesar+date:1800-1950&lr=&num=30&as_brr=0) which says > [@](#): > > Occasionally I would listen to the conversation of the Archbishop, and I once hear him say, what I have often repeated in the pulpit as the authoritative dictum of a great logician, that “there is more evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ than there is for the existence of Julius Caesar.” By the late 1920’s, you can find them talking about Jesus/Socrates. So the discussion in religious circles goes back a bit. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/8 "2008-10-17T20:42:17Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > the authoritative dictum of a great logician, that “there is more evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ than there is for the existence of Julius Caesar.” Ah-ha. That it was a “logician” is the vital bit of information that enabled Google to answer my question. Looks like the source for this was [Denis Diterot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Diderot) in 1770. From “Philosophic Thoughts”: > [@](#): > > It is as certain as two and two make four that Caesar existed. It is as certain that Jesus Christ existed as that Caesar did. It is thus as certain that Jesus Christ was resurrected as that he or Caesar existed. What logic! The existence of Jesus Christ and Caesar is not a miracle. He doesn’t however say what information supports his claim that “It is as certain that Jesus Christ existed as that Caesar did” ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/9 "2008-10-17T21:29:43Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > He doesn’t however say what information supports his claim that “It is as certain that Jesus Christ existed as that Caesar did” Nor does he justify the leap from the _existence_ of Jesus to the _resurrection_ of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/10 "2008-10-17T21:37:04Z")
He doesn’t explain _any_ of his steps, or even his starting point, does he? What logic indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/11 "2008-10-17T21:45:47Z")
Isn’t Diderot being sarcastic? I’ve always thought he was an atheist, or at least a skeptic in regard to Christianity. The way I read that quote, Diderot is saying that there IS no logic that would lead on to conclude that Christ was resurrected, and he’s trying to demonstrate how silly it would be to argue that. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/12 "2008-10-17T21:50:32Z")
Boy, that makes much more sense. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/13 "2008-10-18T02:50:54Z")
Betrand Russell :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/14 "2008-10-18T02:56:48Z")
Would you care to expand on that? As far as I can see, for example, Caesar is not mentioned at all in “Why I Am Not A Christian”. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/15 "2008-10-18T03:28:01Z")
[Knowledge by aquaintance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_by_acquaintance) vs. [knowledge by description](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_by_description). ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/16 "2008-10-18T03:35:55Z")
I would think both knowledge of Jesus and knowledge of Caesar were knowledge by description. At any rate, did Russell ever invoke Jesus to illustrate the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/17 "2008-10-18T03:42:30Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I would think both knowledge of Jesus and knowledge of Caesar were knowledge by description. At any rate, did Russell ever invoke Jesus to illustrate the distinction? There are at least three documented references to Caesar’s “invasion” of Rome (ie., crossing the Rubicon) alone; there are perhaps three primary references of Jesus’ _existence_. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/18 "2008-10-18T03:45:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There are at least three documented references to Caesar’s “invasion” of Rome (ie., crossing the Rubicon) alone; there are perhaps three primary references of Jesus’ _existence_. Did you mean to post this as a reply to my post, or just to the thread in general? (If the former, how does it relate to anything in my post?) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/19 "2008-10-18T03:47:04Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Did you mean to post this as a reply to my post, or just to the thread in general? (If the former, how does it relate to anything in my post?) Actually, I meant to quote **griffin** ’s post. Dunno how I ended up with yours. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403/20 "2008-10-18T07:52:45Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I actually heard it that there was more historical evidence for Jesus than there is for Socrates. Which, whether true or not, is a lot more reasonable. After all, we have actual writings of Ceaser’s. Neither Socrates nor Jesus ever wrote anything down; most of the information we have about them was recorded by their followers. > > Ceaser, as the storied leader of one of the world’s largest empires, left a bit more of a trace. > > EDIT: now that I’ve read the other thread, I see the Socrates thing already mentioned there. Sorry! Right, I have also heard it only as Socrates. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-first-came-up-with-idea-that-there-is-more-evidence-for-jesus-than-ceasar/468403.md?page=2)