# So who is in the right...the restaurant or the customer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 25, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421 "2010-02-25T18:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/41 "2010-02-25T20:51:16Z")
She said she’s been going there for years. I doubt she gained her notoriety after a handful of visits. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/42 "2010-02-25T20:56:40Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > My guess is that this is a gross oversimplification of the issue. > > Here’s one possible scenario: > – Customer happens to be a bit short of cash one day and has to leave a small tip; or customer receives sub-par service one day and chooses to leave a small tip. > – Next visit, the same server gives her a crap attitude based on her previous tip, which - surprise - has a negative effect on this tip as well. > – Server bad-mouths customer to the rest of the staff, which affects their collective behavior toward her, which affects her tipping, _ad infinitum_. My guess is that the scenario is pretty much as the restaurant describes it. There are lots of people who are just shitty tippers, regardless of service. However, I still think the restaurant is making itself look terrible - especially by insisting on an _18%_ minimum gratuity. If they are trying to convey the idea that there’s some minimum standard, then they should make the automatic tip the minimum standard. 10%, or whatever. I wonder what regular patron who’ve always tipped 15% are thinking right now… “18%? Wow, I guess they must hate me a little bit too!” Personally, I tip 20% and up pretty much every time - but I don’t complain about those who don’t. Food service is a pretty effing lucrative deal, even if servers are actually losing money on the occasional customer. Again, both parties are in the wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/43 "2010-02-25T21:00:28Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > It shows a lack of spine by caving in to the selfish and entitled attitudes of the wait staff. If I ran the place I’d be hiring their replacements before alienating a regular customer. Why? Some regular customers are awful. My father-in-law is a pain in the ass to waiters that he comes across. If they aren’t psychic over whether he wants to be allowed to ramble on and on in conversation (when everyone else is hungry) or whether he’s expecting them to be at his beck and call every moment, he gets seriously angry and becomes even more demanding, cuts his tip down to a couple pennies rather than his usual “generous” less-than-10% (he won’t let you tip, either) and grouches to the manager about how they were disrespectful, lazy, incompetent, and generally makes up stuff about them. The restaurants that he goes to regularly would be happier places for the workers and managers if he was told that he obviously couldn’t be served up to his standards, thus he should feel free to never return. On another topic, 18% is a standard gratuity for group checks, but yeah, it’s a tad high to tag onto one person. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/44 "2010-02-25T21:03:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It’s a social obligation to say please and thank you. That doesn’t make not doing so bad behavior. I completely disagree. If someone can’t arse himself to spend all of one second to say please or thank you, that’s a reflection of his character, and not a good one. Not bothering to express gratitude or consideration to another human being who has helped you, when it costs you so little to do so, makes you an inconsiderate asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/45 "2010-02-25T21:04:44Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > On another topic, 18% is a standard gratuity for group checks, but yeah, it’s a tad high to tag onto one person. Bear in mind, the restaurant is tagging that on to her and _whoever is with he_r. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/46 "2010-02-25T21:08:42Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Not bothering to express gratitude or consideration to another human being who has helped you, when it costs you so little to do so, makes you an inconsiderate asshole. So if I fail to say thanks when the clerk sells me a movie ticket I’m an inconsiderate asshole? You must be a real joy to be around. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/47 "2010-02-25T21:12:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Bear in mind, the restaurant is tagging that on to her and _whoever is with he_r. Yeah, which probably is a way to close the loophole that she can claim it wasn’t her tipping/paying. It’s just that you don’t usually see an 18% “auto-grat” unless you have six or more people in a group, so that’s kind of unfair for, say, two. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/48 "2010-02-25T21:14:40Z")
And you must be a joy to wait on if you believe that tips are completely optional. That has nothing to do with whether the restaurant has to put up with a poor tipper as a customer for a period of years. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/49 "2010-02-25T21:18:39Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So if I fail to say thanks when the clerk sells me a movie ticket I’m an inconsiderate asshole? You must be a real joy to be around. For the amount of effort on your part, vs. the consideration and good-will it generates… yes. It takes a split second to say it. It doesn’t require any kind of complex thought process. Being nice to other people is good manners (and will likely make them more willing to help you/be around you in the future). Good god, most people learned that in kindergarten. And yes, if you consistently “forget” to be nice to people, I will choose not to be around you. Life’s too short for that. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/50 "2010-02-25T21:26:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And you must be a joy to wait on if you believe that tips are completely optional. Well, you’re wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive. I am in fact a quite generous tipper on the rare occasion that I dine out. I am intrigued by your use of the term “completely optional.” Are you suggesting that tipping is sort of optional? Or partially optional? [QUOTE=Kaio] For the amount of effort on your part, vs. the consideration and good-will it generates… yes. It takes a split second to say it. It doesn’t require any kind of complex thought process. Being nice to other people is good manners (and will likely make them more willing to help you/be around you in the future). [/QUOTE] I agree. I just disagree that failing to say thanks makes someone an asshole. > [@](#): > > And yes, if you consistently “forget” to be nice to people, I will choose not to be around you. Life’s too short for that. Well, consistently “forgetting” and failing once are two different things, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/51 "2010-02-25T21:32:12Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I am intrigued by your use of the term “completely optional.” Are you suggesting that tipping is sort of optional? Or partially optional? As I said before, the term I would use is “customary.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/52 "2010-02-25T21:36:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As I said before, the term I would use is “customary.” It’s either optional or it isn’t. I really don’t see any gray area there. As noted above, I worked for years as a server. Some folks are bad tippers. Some don’t tip at all. Some tip fabulously. It’s all part of the game. If I didn’t like the pay I was getting, I looked for a better job, just like anyone else. I never worked anywhere that told customers that tipping a certain amount was a necessary condition of being seated. It’s a horrible policy. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/53 "2010-02-25T21:52:56Z")
The management should have told her to take her business elsewhere that they weren’t interested in serving her again. Period. It was nice that they gave her an option, but I think it will bite them in the ass. It’s an easy thing to explain that servers tip out to bartenders, busboys and back to the house, often. If she consistently does not tip it effectively cost the servers money to wait on her. No restaurant manager wants that. If she wants to start tipping she’s welcome to return otherwise, thanks but no thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/54 "2010-02-25T22:06:40Z")
They should just tell her “I’m sorry ma’am, but our staff refuses to serve you due to your lack of appreciation for their services.” Let her sit there and starve or walk out. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Rosetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Green\_Rosetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Rosetta)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/55 "2010-02-25T22:08:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If they are trying to convey the idea that there’s some minimum standard, then they should make the automatic tip the minimum standard. 10%, or whatever. I wonder what regular patron who’ve always tipped 15% are thinking right now… Agreed. Everyone knows that tipping (and tipping more than a few coins) is customary and expected in our culture, and I have to wonder how much the people who argue (to death) the point that it is voluntary are tipping. I feel like it’s violating the social contract- waiters will be nicer to you than the lady in the Taco Bell drive-thru, and in turn, you will leave them a few extra dollars for their service. I think it’s kind of cool that the owners had the balls to say, “We’ve had enough of you cheating our servers. Go to Mark Pi’s if you don’t want to tip.” ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/56 "2010-02-25T22:09:30Z")
They should have simply refused her service. Offering rules in which they provide her service just seems stupid to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/57 "2010-02-25T22:18:40Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > It’s either optional or it isn’t. I really don’t see any gray area there. There are many, many things in life for which a distinction between MANDATORY or OPTIONAL isn’t a good distinction. Shaking hands, saying thank you, covering your mouth when you cough, wearing laundered clothes, making eye contact with people – these are some things which I would neither describe as compulsory or discretionary. I’d call them customary, in that they are things that are not required, are part of the cultural norm, and would be a matter of interest if someone did not do them. You are of course free to disagree, but tipping is, IMHO, a textbook example of a customary practice. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/58 "2010-02-25T22:31:57Z")
Heh. Call me naive, but the whole “black=bad tipper” stereotype is new to me. Is that belief widespread? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/59 "2010-02-25T22:34:40Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Neither is right, but I think she has the basis of a lawsuit against the restaurant. If they just ban her, then they are ok. But bumping her bill without her consent probably violates a few laws. But if I was her, I’d find a good lawyer and test the legal waters. They have not increased her bill without her consent. They have only increased the price she will be charged in the fuiture. No reputable lawyer would take the case. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/60 "2010-02-25T22:41:11Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Heh. Call me naive, but the whole “black=bad tipper” stereotype is new to me. Is that belief widespread? There’s been various studies on the issue. [Here](http://tri-statedefenderonline.com/articlelive/articles/2612/1/The-Tipping-Gap--Whats-at-stake/Page1.html)is one press article on the subject, and [here](http://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/research/chr/pubs/reports/abstract-13851.html) is the study that gets mentioned in a lot of articles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421.md?page=4)