# So who is in the right...the restaurant or the customer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 25, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421 "2010-02-25T18:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/101 "2010-02-26T19:15:21Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > So, the people working in restaurants should either wear a badge telling us what they earn, or tell us when they seat us, “Hi, my name is John, I’ll be your server this evening. I earn $3 an hour before tips, but I average $10 an hour in tips, of which $1.50 goes to the people who bus the tables. But, of course, in my tax return I only tell them that I get $6 an hour in tips. Now, can I get you anything to drink?” The practice of tipping servers has been around for a long time in North America, you don’t need to understand why, but its been explained. If your food and service is good tip at least 15%. I have tipped less for poor service but I explain why when I leave. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/102 "2010-02-26T19:25:37Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > QFT. Though I really wouldn’t have minded the crappy tipping nearly so much if they weren’t also total assholes as often as not. The more crosses and Bibles there were to be seen, the bigger the odds of me getting berated for things like there being a wait to be seated or their onion rings being exactly the wrong shade of taupe, and the smaller the tip. Often these tables would spend an hour bitching at me about things I had no control over, like how busy the restaurant was or why some other table’s soup and cornbread came out faster than their well-done steak, run me back and forth a dozen times for stuff they could have asked for all at once, grouse at me about the size of the bill, and then leave me a handful of change and a religious tract about the Saving Grace of Jesus. And if there was a big church lady hat involved, you could just about bet there wouldn’t be any quarters or dimes in that handful of change. > > That’s the really bad thing about bad tippers–ime, there’s a very high degree of correlation between being a bad tipper and being a demanding asshole. It’s not a 100% correlation–I used to have a couple of little old ladies at a barbecue joint who walked over every Friday after their hair appointment and always left me a couple of shiny new quarters on their $7 tabs, and they were some of the absolute nicest people I have ever dealt with–but I’d say it’s at least 75%. As pure speculation, I’d guess there’s also an element of that in the case mentioned in the OP, but you can’t come out and say you’re charging a specific customer a PITA fee. It makes perfect sense that demanding assholes would also be bad tippers. A tip is an appreciation for service. If you are a demanding asshole, of _course_ you are going to think that the service sucks - it won’t meet with your demanding-asshole expectations. Given that the service “sucks”, you (that is, the demanding asshole) are fully justified in leaving a shitty tip. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/103 "2010-02-26T19:30:19Z")
Neither. She should tip more (though I’d like to see exactly how much she had been tipping) but if they’re not happy with the way she tips, they should have banned her outright. That they added on a percentage that’s even higher than what they automatically add on for a group of 6 makes the restaurant seem even more in error. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/104 "2010-02-26T19:32:53Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > She should be carefull servers get to “handle” her food before it gets to her table. It just dawned on me why she goes to a restaurant that cooks the food in front of her. It takes all the worry out of bad tipping. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/105 "2010-02-26T19:35:17Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Neither. She should tip more (though I’d like to see exactly how much she had been tipping) but if they’re not happy with the way she tips, they should have banned her outright. That they added on a percentage that’s even higher than what they automatically add on for a group of 6 makes the restaurant seem even more in error. Yeah, the 18% seems a mistake. How did they arrive at that figure? I can’t watch the video in the OP. More sympathetic would have been 15%, which is customary. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/106 "2010-02-26T19:46:51Z")
The lady is an asshole. The only question is whether the restaurant is, also. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/107 "2010-02-26T19:53:25Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > In Canada there’s minimun wage laws that everyone has to follow, no one can be paid less than minimun wage. I suspect that might be where the idea that Canadians are bad tippers comes from. I learned that serving staff in the US make much less than their Canadian counterparts here on the Dope; I can imagine there are a lot of Canadians who greatly overestimate how much servers in the US make, and don’t feel the same need to make up their living wage with tips. Add in that whole swathes of tourists who are eating out are elderly snowbirds, and the stereotype makes more sense. Jim and I aim for 15%+ tips when we eat out when we visit the US. We usually get fantastic service, too - service here really sucks in comparison. Course, we’re not coming from Butthole, Saskatchewan, either, where a good tip is, “Don’t eat yellow snow.” ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/108 "2010-02-26T20:22:08Z")
I have to echo those who have questioned the customer’s behavior. ISTM that the woman was not only a lousy tipper but an extremely demanding customer who was there to show off her l33t asshole skills to her co-workers or clients or whoever. If that’s the case, I support the restaurant 100%. Servers shouldn’t be treated that way. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/109 "2010-02-26T20:47:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yeah, the 18% seems a mistake. How did they arrive at that figure? I can’t watch the video in the OP. > > More sympathetic would have been 15%, which is customary. The typical tipping range is 15-20%, so most restaurants that automatically add in a gratuity for large groups split the difference and go with 18%. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/110 "2010-02-26T20:54:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The woman sounds like an asshole. The restaurant should have just refused her service. That said, I’d have no problem with the restaurant owner saying, “Lady, nobody here likes you. If you wanna eat here, there will be an xx% fee added onto your check”. > > I do not own a restaurant, but I do own a small business. Over the years I’ve told a handful of people to kindly take their business elsewhere. Feels good. The problem is restaurants are a service business to the general public and there are a lot of assholes in the general public. If you don’t want to deal with assholes, get into a different business. She can probably also sue the restaurant if the owner says something like that. She may not win, but it will hurt the restaurant a lot more than it will hurt the lady. > [@MsRobyn](#): > > I have to echo those who have questioned the customer’s behavior. ISTM that the woman was not only a lousy tipper but an extremely demanding customer who was there to show off her l33t asshole skills to her co-workers or clients or whoever. If that’s the case, I support the restaurant 100%. Servers shouldn’t be treated that way. If the woman is being loud, disruptive and abusive towards the staff, the appropriate response is for the manager or owner to come over, ask her once to stop, and if she doesn’t, ask her to leave the restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/111 "2010-02-26T21:12:36Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > I have tipped less for poor service but I explain why when I leave. This is my husband’s policy, too. I tip 20%\* for even horrible service. Then I explain the situation to the manager. I hate to snitch even worse than I hate to stiff, but they force my hand sometimes. Once, I was at a diner with my best friend, and I made the comment to my friend about something that had happened at work, and how my coworkers needed to be quieter. A waitress stopped at my table and hissed, “We may be waitresses, but we have every right to talk to eachother. If you don’t like it, you can just leave.” I did leave. I went and talked to the manage that following Saturday, and he was very apologetic and tried so hard to compensate. The kicker; I tipped her 5 dollars, and all I had so far was a coke for me and a tea for my friend. ETA: \*great service will have me tipping like a maniac. It is actually a luxury that I count out in my budget. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/112 "2010-02-26T21:45:42Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > The typical tipping range is 15-20%, so most restaurants that automatically add in a gratuity for large groups split the difference and go with 18%. I guess I’m showing my age, but there seems to be a constant upwards pressure over time on what is “customary” for reasonable service. I always thought it was 15%, with more reserved for really exceptional service. Now I’m hearing that lots of folks routinely give 20%, and more for exceptional service. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/113 "2010-02-26T21:53:54Z")
The restaurant may well be legally in the right, but I’d never eat there if I knew that they treated customers this way. Being in the service industry means you occasionally suffer fools. If you don’t have the fortitude or the humility to eat it once in a while, you don’t deserve to be in business. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/114 "2010-02-26T22:09:05Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So if I fail to say thanks when the clerk sells me a movie ticket I’m an inconsiderate asshole? That’s phrasing it a bit strongly, but yeah, pretty much. Courtesy is nice. I think you probably agree if you think about it. > [@](#): > > You must be a real joy to be around. I try. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/115 "2010-02-26T23:22:52Z")
Just saw this topic and voted in the poll. I was absolutely floored :eek: that so many people said that the restaurant is in the right! Even after having worked in several restaurants, I do not consider tips to be mandatory nor do I consider good service to be directly proportional to the amount of tip you expect. People these days really feel entitled to everything, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/116 "2010-02-26T23:32:44Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > People these days really feel entitled to everything, don’t they? Yeah, fuck them for wanting to be paid for the work they do. I think the restaurant probably could have handled this better, but the woman in question deserved what she got. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/117 "2010-02-26T23:33:57Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > The typical tipping range is 15-20%, so most restaurants that automatically add in a gratuity for large groups split the difference and go with 18%. That particular restaurant had 15% for groups of 6 or more written on their menu. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/118 "2010-02-26T23:43:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I guess I’m showing my age, but there seems to be a constant upwards pressure over time on what is “customary” for reasonable service. I always thought it was 15%, with more reserved for really exceptional service. Now I’m hearing that lots of folks routinely give 20%, and more for exceptional service. When i worked as a waiter in Canada in the early 1990s, 12% was acceptable, and 15% was generally considered pretty damn good. If you got more than fifteen, it was a red-letter day. There have been, however, some good reasons for upward creep in tipping percentages over the years. Former SDMB moderator **manhattan** was involved in the finance and investment industry, and a crucial part of his job was keeping track of changes in costs in various industries. Back in 2005, he gave a very reasonable explanation for the upward trend in tipping percentages. I had made the following argument: > [@Should we tip servers in fancy restaurants more than servers in cheaper ones?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-tip-servers-in-fancy-restaurants-more-than-servers-in-cheaper-ones/283973/45): > > I do tend to agree with you on that issue, **blowero**. After all, restaurant prices go up, so, as you say, this increase should, by itself, result in a commensurate increase in the income of wait staff. Increasing the prices, _and_ increasing the percentage over time, seems a little over the top. Will we some day arrive at a situation where the tip is expected to be 80% of the bill? In response, **manhattan** said: > [@Should we tip servers in fancy restaurants more than servers in cheaper ones?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-we-tip-servers-in-fancy-restaurants-more-than-servers-in-cheaper-ones/283973/48): > > Ah. But over the last several years, food inflation has been less than inflation generally and the food-away-from-home index has been growing more slowly still – the result of enormous competition in the industry. So some percentage creep on the tip has been necessary to keep real server wages constant. We’re starting to see some indications that the restaurant cost index is now moving up more quickly than general inflation, primarlily as some of the quick serve and casual-dining chains finally give in and try to pass through higher protein costs. It’ll be interesting to see if the trend continues and what, if anything, will be the public’s reaction as regards a “standard” tip. This seems quite reasonable to me. I would be interested to see what has happened to the food-away-from-home index in the five years since he wrote that post. One problem, it seems to me, is that tipping, like many other aspects of economics, seems to succumb to the ratchet" effect, where it will go up when relative restaurant costs decline, but will not go back down during times when relative restaurants prices increase. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/119 "2010-02-26T23:49:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I guess I’m showing my age, but there seems to be a constant upwards pressure over time on what is “customary” for reasonable service. I always thought it was 15%, with more reserved for really exceptional service. Now I’m hearing that lots of folks routinely give 20%, and more for exceptional service. I think this is mainly because minimum wage laws haven’t kept pace with inflation. Hell, the “regular” minimum wage was stuck at $5.15 for _years_, and the subsequent increases have all been really recent. It’s been about 5 years since I waited tables, but the most I ever got as an hourly wage was around 4 bucks, and this was more than the tipped employees minimum wage. Most often I made around 2. And don’t forget, when you tip 15%, your server actually gets around 12%, since 3% of sales is tipped out to the bus and bar. If you tip me 18% so I can walk away with 15%, believe me, it makes a difference. I’d love the American tipping system to go by the wayside – just raise the menu prices to cover the actual cost of their wages and be done with it. I don’t believe it would create a disincentive to servers to provide good service; if they’re consistently bad at their job, fire them just like you’d fire a consistently surly retail clerk. In that way, tipping could become _truly_ optional, as a reward for exemplary service. Problem is, I don’t make the rules, I just have to abide by them. And penalizing a server who has no say in the rules at all, is a dick thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421/120 "2010-02-27T00:00:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Even after having worked in several restaurants, I do not consider tips to be mandatory nor do I consider good service to be directly proportional to the amount of tip you expect. People these days really feel entitled to everything, don’t they? If you waited on a table of 6 people for two hours that racked up a bill of $200 and left you a dollar and change for a tip you wouldn’t be a little peeved ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-in-the-right-the-restaurant-or-the-customer/530421.md?page=7)