# So, who is this Hossein Moussavi cat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489 "2009-06-11T21:13:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/1 "2009-06-11T21:13:37Z")
If the liberal media are to be trusted, it looks like Iran could be on the verge of ditching a corrupt leader bent on decimating his country in favor of one perhaps less inclined to do that. Anyone got any idea who/what his challenger is though? He hasn’t officially played the game in 20 years. Is he the sort that would continue to kowtow to the Ayatollah or might he begin to separate mosque & state? He sounds to me like an academic who has little time for right wing BS. Maybe he’ll go bowling with the Obama-lama. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/2 "2009-06-12T07:50:06Z")
This thread is not about cats. Would not read again. -1. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/3 "2009-06-12T11:18:15Z")
I’ll move this to Great Debates in the hope of getting some more responses. > [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > If the liberal media are to be trusted, it looks like Iran could be on the verge of ditching a corrupt leader bent on decimating his country in favor of one perhaps less inclined to do that. The leader of Iran is the Ayatollah, along with his council lead Iran. The president has a role to play, but I think it’s more administrative. In the case of Ahmadinejad this also included a lot of running his mouth. > [@](#): > > Is he the sort that would continue to kowtow to the Ayatollah or might he begin to separate mosque & state? If you don’t kowtow to the Ayatollah, you don’t get to run in the election. We hear a lot about various Iranian politicians being reformers and others being hardliners, but I don’t think anybody’s pushing for the kind of secular government you see in the West. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/4 "2009-06-12T11:52:01Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > If the liberal media are to be trusted, it looks like Iran could be on the verge of ditching a corrupt leader bent on decimating his country in favor of one perhaps less inclined to do that. This liberal media you bring up-where does it come from? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/5 "2009-06-12T13:26:05Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > This liberal media you bring up-where does it come from? That bit was sorta tongue in cheek. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/6 "2009-06-12T13:31:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If you don’t kowtow to the Ayatollah, you don’t get to run in the election. We hear a lot about various Iranian politicians being reformers and others being hardliners, but I don’t think anybody’s pushing for the kind of secular government you see in the West. True, but a secular Iran wouldn’t be Iran and I don’t know that I’d really want to see one. Takes all kinds to make a world and all that. But I think even a piously devout Iran can interact with the rest of the world if it’s international face isn’t continuously vomiting hateful bile. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/7 "2009-06-12T13:33:10Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > True, but a secular Iran wouldn’t be Iran and I don’t know that I’d really want to see one. Takes all kinds to make a world and all that. I don’t expect to see a secular Iran any time soon, but I’d be happy to see one that loses some of the extremist qualities the current government has. Early reports indicate that turnout is huge and the economy is the big issue, both of which are probably very bad news for Ahmadinejad since he’s faced criticism for doing a bad job with the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/8 "2009-06-12T13:53:06Z")
Yes, those in the know have been saying that a large turnout favors Mousavi. He sounds good to me; he’s been saying that Ahmadinejad’s policy of supporting extremists, Holocaust denial, etc., is stupid and serves only to isolate Iran rather than serving Iran’s interests. However, even if he wins, he will be severely limited in what he can do–everybody was all excited when Khatami was elected, but he was basically hamstrung by the Guardian Council. [For example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Khatami#Khatami_and_Iran.27s_2004_parliamentary_election): > [@](#): > > In February 2004 Parliament elections, the Council of Guardians banned thousands of candidates, including most of the reformist members of the parliament and all the candidates of the Islamic Iran Participation Front party from running. This led to a win by the conservatives of at least 70% of the seats. I, personally, would love to see a secular Iran. It would be like having another Turkey in the Middle East. But as long as the Ayatollah and the Guardian Council are the ones actually holding the reins, it’s not going to happen, no matter who wins the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/9 "2009-06-12T14:14:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The leader of Iran is the Ayatollah, > [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > But as long as the Ayatollah Folks, let’s remember there are about a zillion Ayatollahs running around, as well as two dozen or so _Grand_ Ayatollahs. Ayatollah is a religious ranking, not a governmental one. Khamenei’s official government title as per the Iranian constitution is actually **Rahbar** - just plain “Leader.” More usually rendered as the Boris and Natashaesque “Supreme Leader.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/10 "2009-06-12T15:08:24Z")
Yeah, don’t think that Iran is going to become more secular really, but it might become more moderate a la Khatami. It’s interesting, I think that when the US has a more liberal less belligerent leader Iran follows suit. We had Khatami under Clinton and bulldog Ahmedinejad during Bush, could it change so that a more moderate one to match Obama comes into play? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/11 "2009-06-12T19:13:24Z")
Moussavi is declaring victory over there, but I don’t know when the results will be final or even how reliable the counting is. If he gets 50+% of the vote, he wins; if he only gets a plurality there will be a runoff between him and the next-highest finisher, presumably Ahmadinejad. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/12 "2009-06-12T19:32:29Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > If the liberal media are to be trusted, it looks like Iran could be on the verge of ditching a corrupt leader bent on decimating his country in favor of one perhaps less inclined to do that. > > Anyone got any idea who/what his challenger is though? He hasn’t officially played the game in 20 years. Is he the sort that would continue to kowtow to the Ayatollah or might he begin to separate mosque & state? He sounds to me like an academic who has little time for right wing BS. Maybe he’ll go bowling with the Obama-lama. Ahmadinejad is a raving nut job and his economic policies have been entirely ineffective in Iran, but I don’t know where the “corrupt” charge comes from. He’s not been nabbed with his hand in the public till. He has not hesitated to accuse others of that, however. Mousavi was fairly vague in his campaign. I think he positioned himself as Not-Ahamdinejad and figured the public’s hatred of the president would sweep him into office. The country is still under the thumb of Khamenei no matter who wins the election today. The best we can hope is that Mousvai turns out to be a kind of Gorbachev who brings down the system from the inside by giving the people an inch who then take a mile. This is maybe not the most likely outcome, but it can’t be discounted. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/13 "2009-06-12T19:41:33Z")
My fingers are crossed for Mousavi. I think the Obama administration would feel less pressure not to engage Iran directly under a new and ostensibly reform-minded President, regardless of where the power actually lies. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/14 "2009-06-12T20:18:43Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > …even if he wins, he will be severely limited in what he can do–everybody was all excited when Khatami was elected, but he was basically hamstrung by the Guardian Council. The flip side of that is that when Ahmadinejad was elected, the Guardian Council was able to stop him from doing whatever harebrained extremist crap he wanted to do. So I’m not sure it’s entirely a bad thing. Some rural areas of Iran seem to be a breeding ground for deeply scary extremists. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/15 "2009-06-12T20:25:07Z")
I don’t think the Ayatollahs in Iran are as batshit as we like to think of them. They seem to sincerely want what’s best for their country, and they believe that Islam is the path to that. When Bush was threatening their borders from both sides after they’d offered aid to us, well they needed a bulldog, and Ahmadinejad filled that role nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/16 "2009-06-12T20:57:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think the Ayatollahs in Iran are as batshit as we like to think of them. They seem to sincerely want what’s best for their country, and they believe that Islam is the path to that. When Bush was threatening their borders from both sides after they’d offered aid to us, well they needed a bulldog, and Ahmadinejad filled that role nicely. The Ayatollahs are not a monolithic block. At least one of them is under house arrest in Iran right now. They want what’s best for Iran, but they don’t agree on what that is. Besides, you can want what’s best for your country and still be awful. I’m sure Hitler wanted what was best for Germany. Both sides are claiming victory right now. Ahmedinejad’s only hope to win this thing seems to have been to hope turnout in the urban centers was low . By all accounts those areas produced a huge turnout. If Ahmedinejad steals this election there will be trouble in Iran’s cities. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/17 "2009-06-13T03:05:34Z")
Reports are that with 70-some% of the vote counted, Ahmadinejad has 65% of the vote. That’s a bit of a surprise, and I would expect the reaction within Iran to be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/18 "2009-06-13T03:14:21Z")
Yeah, maybe they’ll celebrate by storming an embassy. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/19 "2009-06-13T03:21:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, maybe they’ll celebrate by storming an embassy. Maybe they’re due for another revolution. It’s been 30 years, and if the election gives the impression of being stolen . . . I said interesting, didn’t I? In fairness, I must say, that (given the fact the the religious authorities approve the candidates) vote counting in Iran has seemed to be honest since the Khomeini revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489/20 "2009-06-13T09:18:39Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > If the liberal media are to be trusted, it looks like Iran could be on the verge of ditching a corrupt leader bent on decimating his country in favor of one perhaps less inclined to do that. It doesn’t matter which of the four bigots wins. Those who actually hold power in Iran have made sure of that: [WSJ - Iran’s Potemkin Election](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124458910646499883.html) > [@](#): > > Thus, for the past two elections to the Majlis (the Iranian parliament) the Revolutionary Guards – who are controlled directly by Mr. Khamanei – have carefully vetted all the candidates to ensure only those with the right revolutionary credentials are allowed to stand. > Now the regime, in the form of the Guardian Council, which is charged with upholding the tenets of Khomeini’s revolution, has employed the same tactic ahead of the presidential election: Of the original 475 applicants only four candidates have survived the cull. All of them have revolutionary credentials beyond reproach. The only ones who are impressed with this charade are the gullible western journalists who believe that they’re witnessing an authentic democratic election. > [@bannerrefugee](#): > > This liberal media you bring up-where does it come from? You’re surrounded by it. It’s the same media that informs and misinforms your idiot President and his idiot advisers, judging by this piece of nonsense uttered by Obama: [VOANEWS.COM.](http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-06-12-voa31.cfm) > [@](#): > > “Obviously after the speech that I made in Cairo, we tried to send a clear message that we think there’s the possibility of change,” he said. “And you know ultimately the election is for the Iranians to decide. But just as has been true in Lebanon, what can be true in Iran as well is that you’re seeing people looking at new possibilities.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-is-this-hossein-moussavi-cat/499489.md?page=2)