# So who the fuck is offended by Santa Claus? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 1, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541 "2016-12-01T16:40:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/61 "2016-12-02T03:44:48Z")
This is interesting to me, because my family helps with a prison ministry. At this time of year, I’m often co-opted to help decorate the annual Christmas bags for whatever loot the church takes to the inmates. The only restriction is that they only contain religious images (I have no idea why, as I’ve never been and those I’ve asked don’t know either) and absolutely nothing secular, lest those bags get discarded. Guess who is on the No No list? That’s right, good ol’ Santa. So, there’s one data point from the penal system in east Texas that does _not_ view the red suited one as related to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/62 "2016-12-02T03:53:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > There is no explicit “establishment clause” in Canada, although there has always been freedom of religion and effectively the same principles as the First Amendment are now enshrined in the Constitution. > > But what I was talking about has never really been about religion. I don’t recall the school Christmas activities, either mine or my kids’, being in any particular way religious. It wasn’t so much about Jesus as about Santa and reindeer and traditional celebrations. I regard it as a cultural thing that’s deeply ingrained in both our nations and the western world more than a religious thing. Maybe I wasn’t clear. The free exercise clause is not the same as the establishment clause. Both are part of the 1st amendment, and you can have one without the other. Certainly there are folks in the US who would love to see Jesus in public schools (Christmas or otherwise), but we walk a tightrope because of the establishment clause, and it’s not always clear to public officials what’s in or out, per this particular story where the school clearly sent out a notice NOT to put up Santa pics. This isn’t about the free exercise clause. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/63 "2016-12-02T04:03:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I admit that I’m biased by the fact that I have really wonderful memories of childhood Christmases. At least some of it has to do with school because, after all, that’s where all the kids are, and that’s where, so to speak, the critical mass of events is – the decorations, the plays and concerts, the communal spirit and excited anticipation. > > Now I’m not sure exactly what the Oregon schools are saying because it seems to have changed with public opinion, but it sounds like bullshit to me for one simple reason. **I’m as inclusive as anyone, but the idea of being “inclusive” is that you welcome others into your customs, not that you curtail your own customs to appease someone else**. I have no problem with those of other traditions and religions bringing their own celebrations and traditions to school, and we might even learn from them and expand our understanding of other cultures. Inclusiveness is not about excluding and disdain, it’s the opposite. As I said, I’m about as liberally open-minded and inclusive as can be, but if anyone arrives here from someplace that disdains Christmas and want me or my kids to dial down our celebration of Christmas, they can just fuck right off. (bolding mine) What a ridiculous, self-serving, ethnocentric bullshit definition of “inclusive” you’ve come up with? Did you hurt yourself twisting doing that? So in your world, a classroom with walls covered with Santa Claus, every square inch, is inclusive as long as all the kids get to look at it, even the kids who come from cultures that don’t celebrate the birth of Christ? :rolleyes: Fuck Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/64 "2016-12-02T04:15:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > (bolding mine) > > What a ridiculous, self-serving, ethnocentric bullshit definition of “inclusive” you’ve come up with? Did you hurt yourself twisting doing that? > > So in your world, a classroom with walls covered with Santa Claus, every square inch, is inclusive as long as all the kids get to look at it, even the kids who come from cultures that don’t celebrate the birth of Christ? > > :rolleyes: > > Fuck Christmas. Ho Ho Ho, the insane Left starts implode yet again on what it means to be truly tolerant. Merry Christmas. (For the record, I fully agree with **Wolfpup** on this one. I went to a heavily Jewish university and Jewish holidays were officially and unofficially observed to the offense of absolutely no one. I work with a metric shit-ton of people from India now and enjoy getting electronic Diwali greeting cards from them and sometime celebrate it with them in person). What is the problem with people celebrating innocent holidays with good intentions? I am agnostic myself and I still celebrate Christmas, Halloween, Easter, St. Patrick’s Day and everything else. They are just recycled ancient holidays to break up the year. We need more holidays in the U.S., not fewer. Jesus on a stick, people need to lighten up. It is no wonder that Trump got elected President. Many of you are spiraling out of control. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/65 "2016-12-02T05:10:21Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I’m going to ignore the people of Oregon (ok, just some of them…) and just see the unbridled _JOY_ in the tacky light displays and Charlie Brown’s Christmas and The Hannukah Song and Festivus and finding the perfect present and egg nog and Jeremy the elf/dentist. It’s fucking \ ***HERMIE** , \*Goddammit! Haven’t you learned _anything_ from this fucking message board? 😕 (Someone provide link, please. You know what.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/66 "2016-12-02T05:28:41Z")
I dislike Santa for a completely different reason: the indoctrination of maximum consumerism into the hearts of the nation’s children. > [@octopus](#): > > The same Oregon that banned the phrase “brown bag” is being ridiculed again? Apparently it was [a _different_ Oregon](http://redalertpolitics.com/2013/08/02/seattle-city-govt-bans-use-of-citizen-brown-bag-from-official-use/). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/67 "2016-12-02T06:25:46Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Ho Ho Ho, the insane Left starts implode yet again on what it means to be truly tolerant. Wow, this makes no sense whatsoever. Assuming that you’re referring to my post, since you quoted it, what makes you think anything I say or do is representative of the “Left”? Also, why don’t you go ahead and explain what you think it means to be truly tolerant? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/68 "2016-12-02T07:07:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Also, why don’t you go ahead and explain what you think it means to be truly tolerant? :dubious: **Wolfpup** already told you. In this case it means accepting and even participating in holidays that don’t fit your own beliefs and preferences (or not if you feel that strongly about it). It doesn’t mean wishing that others would not participate at all or, in extreme cases, trying to get have it actively blocked for those that want to participate. It is just plain stupid to complain about Christmas in general because most of it has nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity at all. All of those lights, trees, presents and snowflakes are just combined celebrations of winter solstice celebration that countless cultures have celebrated over time. Nobody knows when Jesus was born exactly but it certainly wasn’t on December 25th. You are perfectly free to remove Christianity completely from the holiday and yet it still remains mostly the same. I don’t believe that human snowflakes are curmudgeons are truly that opposed to it either. If they were, they would be lobbying to have Christmas be a regular school or workday. Even my Jehovah’s Witness office mate who doesn’t celebrate any holidays would be opposed to that. Many non-Christians celebrate a secular Christmas but, even among those that don’t, many still have their own “Christmas traditions”. Some of them include Jewish people going out with family to Chinese restaurants or Japanese people eating fried chicken. All of those are perfectly fine and in the spirit. I don’t think any combination of decorated trees, reindeer, snowmen (and women), fried rice, KFC or even Red Rider BB guns is enough justification to attract any type of reactionary pseudo-protests like you expressed. It just sounds like a dog getting pissed off at the 4th of July because it is really scared of fireworks. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/69 "2016-12-02T08:23:58Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Just wondering - what holiday decorations _are_ appropriate in “inclusive and welcoming spaces” for the kiddies? > > Maybe a giant Amazondotcom icon in honor of “Cyber Monday”. > > **Jackmannii** , celebrating secular Xmases since…well, a really really long time. 🙂 You mean instead of the Coca-Cola-created mascot we have nowadays? Hell, at least the amazondotcom logo would be honest about what the holidays are really all about. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/70 "2016-12-02T08:36:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe I wasn’t clear. The free exercise clause is not the same as the establishment clause. Both are part of the 1st amendment, and you can have one without the other. > > Certainly there are folks in the US who would love to see Jesus in public schools (Christmas or otherwise), but we walk a tightrope because of the establishment clause, and it’s not always clear to public officials what’s in or out, per this particular story where the school clearly sent out a notice NOT to put up Santa pics. This isn’t about the free exercise clause. I understand they’re not the same thing. All I’m saying is that my childhood recollections of Christmas and school have no particular religious connotations, and I think since then over the years Christmas has become ever more secular. Ask a schoolkid today what “Santa” symbolizes and I’d be amazed if s/he says anything about “the birth of Jesus” unless s/he was from a particularly religious household, which is fine but that’s not a school issue. Anyway, my school days were a long time ago (I think the Romans were still persecuting Christians at the time) but I have much clearer recollections of the kids growing up. My son went to elementary school in one of the most ethnically and culturally diverse cities in North America, and Christmas celebrations were big affairs with neither prohibitions from the school board nor complaints from anyone, and no religious associations that I can remember at all. The kids all had a great time and the greatest of all was when everyone was dismissed for Christmas vacation after the last event and kids and parents went home in what, in a perfect world, might have been the first real snowfall of the season coating everything in perfect white, so that only the glimmer of the Christmas lights all over the neighborhood and the occasional lawn reindeer and Santas were visible. Anyone who thinks any of this is a problem (I don’t mean you) must have some kind of Christmas-hate due to some childhood trauma they are working out. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/71 "2016-12-02T13:52:37Z")
I’m really tempted to start a “Keep Christ Out Of Christmas” movement. I know, we’ll start with Random Scholarly Science Guy announcing that research shows Jesus was born in February, so we can celebrate his birthday then. And maybe those Maccabean Jews rededicated the Temple in February, too… We need something more interesting than Valentine’s Day going on then anyhow. And then we make Solstice Day more fun than Christmas ever was. (I’ll leave the details up to the operatives on the streets; I’m busy keeping this recliner warm…) Oh, wait, another idea: we don’t need to change the name of the Winter Holiday. We’ll get Jesus out of it by just spelling it the way all my family seems to pronounce it… Good peoples of every faith or none, I give you… **Krissmiss**! ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/72 "2016-12-02T14:02:23Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I’m really tempted to start a “Keep Christ Out Of Christmas” movement. > > I know, we’ll start with Random Scholarly Science Guy announcing that research shows Jesus was born in February, so we can celebrate his birthday then. And maybe those Maccabean Jews rededicated the Temple in February, too… We need something more interesting than Valentine’s Day going on then anyhow. > > And then we make Solstice Day more fun than Christmas ever was. > > (I’ll leave the details up to the operatives on the streets; I’m busy keeping this recliner warm…) > Oh, wait, another idea: we don’t need to change the name of the Winter Holiday. We’ll get Jesus out of it by just spelling it the way all my family seems to pronounce it… > > Good peoples of every faith or none, > I give you… **Krissmiss**! Or even better, [Chrismass](http://cdn04.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/headlines/2015/12/chris-hemsworth-sleigh-scooter-race-fallon.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/73 "2016-12-02T14:10:02Z")
We really have two year-end festivals named Christmas. One is a modest celebration in the Christian calendar (Easter being the Really Big Deal), and the other is a grossly overblown extravaganza celebrating little more than the desire for a big party. St. Nicholas is unquestionably a Christian emblem. Santa Clause, on the other hand is a purely secular symbol of overhyped consumerism. Plus, in the popular conception, he looks like an elderly alcoholic. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/74 "2016-12-02T14:12:27Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Jehovah’s Witnesses and some other small religious groups often object to Santa Claus: > > …“Its roots: According to the popular view, the Santa Claus myth owes its origin to Saint Nicholas, Archbishop of Myra in Asia Minor, now Turkey. “ **Virtually everything written about St. Nicholas is based on legends,** ” says The Christmas Encyclopedia.”… (emphasis mine) The irony, it burns! ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/75 "2016-12-02T14:36:19Z")
Hmmm…let me think about the manger scenes I remember from my childhood. There’s a Jewish couple with a nice Jewish baby (pre-circumcision). There’s a virgin mother for the Catholics and Orthodox. There are three magi from the East (probably somewhere that would adopt Islam a thousand years later). There’s a cow very similar to those regarded as sacred by an Indian religion. There’s a sheep (for the Scots). There’s an unexplained celestial phenomenon for the science crowd. And there’s usually a guy who’s been tending his flock by night, just like many rural Americans. Seems pretty non-denominational to me. (Sorry, atheists…I got nothing for you.) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/76 "2016-12-02T14:36:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It is just plain stupid to complain about Christmas in general because most of it has nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity at all. All of those lights, trees, presents and snowflakes are just combined celebrations of winter solstice celebration that countless cultures have celebrated over time. Only if you’re already inside the pervasive Christian culture in the US. To many who were raised in a different religion it gives a very different impression. I would never object to you celebrating any aspect of Christmas on your own time or in your own home or private business, but it is a much different scenario in a public school IMO. No matter how many times people say that Santa (and lights and trees and candy canes) has nothing to do with Christianity, I can only reply that for me it is and will remain a Christian symbol. Not a symbol I can’t enjoy or appreciate, but a Christian symbol none the less. I accept that it isn’t a Christian symbol for everyone, but I would ask that people understand that it’s a Christian symbol to me. BTW, this doesn’t apply to snowflakes, snowmen, and sleds, so knock yourself out with those. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/77 "2016-12-02T15:00:20Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I am not offended by images of Santa but to say that he has zero to do with Christianity is just plain wrong. It is amazing how many people buy into the idea of secular Christmas - there is no such thing. Really? Considering that Christianity co-opted the holiday from the Roman celebration of Saturnalia, it’s hard to accept the celebrations at this time of year as being anything but secular. [Good discussion of it here.](http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/78 "2016-12-02T15:03:10Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I’m really tempted to start a “Keep Christ Out Of Christmas” movement. > > I know, we’ll start with Random Scholarly Science Guy announcing that research shows Jesus was born in February, so we can celebrate his birthday then. And maybe those Maccabean Jews rededicated the Temple in February, too… We need something more interesting than Valentine’s Day going on then anyhow. > > And then we make Solstice Day more fun than Christmas ever was. > > (I’ll leave the details up to the operatives on the streets; I’m busy keeping this recliner warm…) > Oh, wait, another idea: we don’t need to change the name of the Winter Holiday. We’ll get Jesus out of it by just spelling it the way all my family seems to pronounce it… > > Good peoples of every faith or none, > I give you… **Krissmiss**! When my son Christopher was young, I told them that since everyone was squawking about putting Christ back in Christmas, that he would have to donate part of his name and from then on would be called “Xtopher” and his cousin would be known as “Xtine”. He thought it was pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/79 "2016-12-02T15:15:44Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > **Wolfpup** already told you. In this case it means accepting and even participating in holidays that don’t fit your own beliefs and preferences (or not if you feel that strongly about it). It doesn’t mean wishing that others would not participate at all or, in extreme cases, trying to get have it actively blocked for those that want to participate. > > It is just plain stupid to complain about Christmas in general because most of it has nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity at all. All of those lights, trees, presents and snowflakes are just combined celebrations of winter solstice celebration that countless cultures have celebrated over time. Nobody knows when Jesus was born exactly but it certainly wasn’t on December 25th. You are perfectly free to remove Christianity completely from the holiday and yet it still remains mostly the same. > > I don’t believe that human snowflakes are curmudgeons are truly that opposed to it either. If they were, they would be lobbying to have Christmas be a regular school or workday. Even my Jehovah’s Witness office mate who doesn’t celebrate any holidays would be opposed to that. Many non-Christians celebrate a secular Christmas but, even among those that don’t, many still have their own “Christmas traditions”. Some of them include Jewish people going out with family to Chinese restaurants or Japanese people eating fried chicken. All of those are perfectly fine and in the spirit. > > I don’t think any combination of decorated trees, reindeer, snowmen (and women), fried rice, KFC or even Red Rider BB guns is enough justification to attract any type of reactionary pseudo-protests like you expressed. It just sounds like a dog getting pissed off at the 4th of July because it is really scared of fireworks. **wolfpup** ’s definition of inclusive (quoted and bolded) is wrong and self-serving.There was no “reactionary pseudo-protest”. You appear to have great problems with reading comprehension in that you seem to only glean what information you wish, ignoring all words to the contrary. I doubt it’s worth spending any more time on this discussion because of that and because of your reflexive and immediate instinct to go for personal insults. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541/80 "2016-12-02T15:16:48Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Just any elephant? No-A _baby_ elephant, in a manger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-who-the-fuck-is-offended-by-santa-claus/773541.md?page=5)