So who the hell DOESN'T support the troops...

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
During the initial invasion–oh about four years ago–you would have had a point. But that’s not what’s going on over here now. It isn’t Iraq against the United States. It isn’t some organized group of Iraq Civilian Militia or Iraqi Underground trying to repell some oppressive occupational force. What’s going on over here is more analagous to a violent gang war fighting over power, and religion.
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And against you.

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
Just yesterday I was out patrolling with–get this–the Iraqi Army! Yup, Iraqis. How crazy is that?
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Not crazy at all. They need to eat, and we’ve wrecked their economy. And they’ll need the weapons and training to fight each other, and you.

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
I wasn’t trying to kill them.
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Yes you are, just by being there.

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
They weren’t trying to repell my invasion.
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Not right then, not right there. Any number of them could be “insurgents” at other times, or working with them, or planning to join them with the weapons and training they got in the army.

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
We were just working together trying to find certain Al-Queda leaders who probably aren’t even Iraqi citizens to begin with.
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In other words, people those Iraqi soldiers are happy to shoot, for the same exact reason they’d be happy to shoot you. Don’t delude yourself that you are morally superior or better liked by Iraqis than those Al Qaeda.

62

I know that I am not as eloquent as others who have been in these dabates, and I’m not sure I can put into words what I am thinking. I agree with gigi and others who say that the war is evil, and how do you decide who dies?

The real evil, in my mind, is that we have created a society that forces some folks to believe that joining the military is the only option for them. There are way too many folks in the armed forces because they couldn’t see another way to survive. The military offers training, money and a chance for education that may be impossible otherwise.

If my dreams came true, then the only folks who would have to participate in a war would be those that believed in the cause enough to sign up for it in advance. If they were in the military, and some muckety-mucks in power decided that we should invade Upper Backwaterstan because it would help out their buddies in the defense industry, all folks in the front lines would have a clear understanding of the reasons, and the right to say “Nope!”

Then, the muckety-mucks would have to go fight themselves.

As it stands, we’ve got an economic draft, so I guess my best way of “supporting the troops” is to fight like heck for the rights of the folks that have no other choice. Problem is, I can’t stop the dying on both sides very fast that way. So, I don’t “support the troops” by making it easier for them to be there, of by making it sound like a noble endeavor. I can’t. The only folks gaining by this war are the rich, and one thing they are gaining is more folks who think killing is necessary and right- so their own kids won’t get drafted.

If any of this makes any sense… I will not think ill of the troops if they went there because of necessity; or if they joined up before GWB came into power - but if they joined because they believed that yahoo, or because they think killing folks is a great career, then no, I don’t support them.

63

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And against you.

Not crazy at all. They need to eat, and we’ve wrecked their economy. And they’ll need the weapons and training to fight each other, and you.

Yes you are, just by being there.

Not right then, not right there. Any number of them could be “insurgents” at other times, or working with them, or planning to join them with the weapons and training they got in the army.

In other words, people those Iraqi soldiers are happy to shoot, for the same exact reason they’d be happy to shoot you. Don’t delude yourself that you are morally superior or better liked by Iraqis than those Al Qaeda.
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I know this is pointless to ask, but it is even possible, in your mind, that Bear Nenno, a man who is putting his life and safety on the line, and counting on an Iraqi soldier to cover his ass, and conversely is going to cover his, a man that has broken bread with Iraqis, has been living in Iraq, and dealing with the ACTUAL situation there, may have a better idea of the mindset of the average Iraqi?

You honestly believe that you, who live in a basement with your parents (presumably) understand EXACTLY what the situation is like in Iraq better than he does?

64

[QUOTE=Rockrz]
Pretty much the entire democratic party who are faighting against those who are trying to protect us from islamic extremists.

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So Saddam was an Islamic extremist? He had Christians in high positions in his government. Women in Iraq were not oppressed by Islamic law, and became doctors and executives. Evil murderous thug, yes, Islamic extremist no. He killed Sadr’s father, remember?

Cite? If you remember, before the second war the US wanted to get a Security Council resolution supporting it. They were even willing to settle for a majority of the Council, given that a veto was inevitable. They couldn’t even get that. Most of the world had independent intelligence, and wasn’t fooled by the WMD lies.

You really ought to read Fiasco. Lots of people thought of problems that could arise, but the contingency plans were rejected, and planning didn’t begin until things were already a mess. The morons in this Administration went to war with slightly less preparation than my wife and I do to go grocery shopping.

65

[QUOTE=Tristan]
I know this is pointless to ask, but it is even possible, in your mind, that Bear Nenno, a man who is putting his life and safety on the line, and counting on an Iraqi soldier to cover his ass, and conversely is going to cover his, a man that has broken bread with Iraqis, has been living in Iraq, and dealing with the ACTUAL situation there, may have a better idea of the mindset of the average Iraqi?
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No. Assuming that he’s even telling the truth about what he is doing and seeing, which I don’t. He is, to be blunt, presenting a view of Iraq and the Iraqis that not only contradicts what we see elsewhere, but contradicts human nature. At best he’s deluding himself.

[QUOTE=Tristan]
You honestly believe that you, who live in a basement with your parents (presumably) understand EXACTLY what the situation is like in Iraq better than he does?
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My parents have been dead for years, and never had a basement taller than a few feet. And considering that last I heard the majority of American soldiers thought that Saddam was behind 9-11, yes, I think I’m better informed than them. The majority of the industrialized world is probably better informed than our heavily propaganized troops.

66

Well, I guess I’m not the only person in the world with a tremendous, grotesquely oversized ego.

67

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
And I really hate the doublespeak where so many soldiers (and supporters) claim that the soldiers don’t have any choice and are merely a tool while at the same time they are supposed to be honored for their choices.
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It’s not doublespeak. It’s an all-volunteer force – they made a choice to serve. And that includes letting the civil government decide how they are to be used.

68

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And against you.
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Yes, and against me. But not for the heroic liberation of their country like you always hint at. They’re not just targeting coalition forces. The JAM, for instance, are targeting Iraqi civilians, as well as Iraqi Army. Not to mention all the extortion going on. What a bunch of freedom fighters you’re rooting for :rolleyes:
If anything, it’s these groups and insurgent cells who hold the mohallas in a fist of fear and oppression, not the US Military.

69

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]

Just yesterday I was out patrolling with–get this–the Iraqi Army! Yup, Iraqis. How crazy is that?
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No crazier than seeing a *Schutzstaffel *unit on patrol with the Milice back in the day, I’m sure.

70

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
Yes, and against me. But not for the heroic liberation of their country like you always hint at. They’re not just targeting coalition forces. The JAM, for instance, are targeting Iraqi civilians, as well as Iraqi Army. Not to mention all the extortion going on. What a bunch of freedom fighters you’re rooting for :rolleyes:
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Totally irrelevant. First, as you yourself have said they aren’t unified. What one group does has little connection to what another does. Second, they wouldn’t be doing what they are doing if your and yours hadn’t smashed Iraq; every bit of blood they spill, some sticks to you. And third, it’s not like the Americans haven’t killed large numbers of civilians. Or worse than killed. So don’t pretend you are some sort of hero.

Being in the US military in Iraq is morally no better than being a member of the Al Qaeda cell that puilled off 9-11. Worse, if anything, since they had more real provocation, and killed far fewer people.

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
If anything, it’s these groups and insurgent cells who hold the mohallas in a fist of fear and oppression, not the US Military.
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Yes, that’s why the US military is SO incredibly popular in Iraq. :rolleyes:

71

Support thread.

72

[QUOTE=fisha]
Support thread.

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That would be supporting the citizens of Iraq, not the troops, right?

73

Soccer balls, candy, sign language books, OK, whatever, but I think the idea of giving them SDMB shirts is disturbing, myself.Not something I’d want to be associated with, yet I am…

74

[QUOTE=gigi]
That would be supporting the citizens of Iraq, not the troops, right?
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Guess what. If you support the citizens of Iraq by making their lives more pleasant, then you are in turn supporting the troops. Think about it. A soldier gives an Iraqi kid a soccer ball. The kid shows it to his parents. The parents, who had thought that the US is filled with oppressive thugs and imperialistic murderers, begin to think that maybe not everyone from the US is horrible. The parents don’t hate the troops as much. They, in turn, are more willing to help the troops find the insurgents or at least not give the troops the evil eye..

This is the “winning of hearts and minds” that everyone talks about. So yeah, you can try to appease your mind by saying that it is supporting the citizens. But the stuff wouldn’t get to the kids without the troops. And the troops need every bit of help they can get from us since they don’t always get the help they need from TPTB.

75

Little late getting back here, but…

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno]
Colassal backlash? WTF are you talking about? Are you reading into my post or something?
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What makes you think this is all about your post? Did you coin the phrase, “Support the troops”? In addition to the millions of car magnets, I’m talking about the relentless bashing by right-wing pundits of anyone who supposedly “doesn’t support the troops”. And there have been huge rallys held to bash Americans who don’t support the war, with “support the troops” being euphamistic mantra.

No, you yourself estimated that there are only a couple thousand. That’s insignificant in a nation of 300 million.

President Bush, is that you? I’m talking about the overall attitude on the right that agressive, unilateral US military action–and nothing but–is the solution to Islamic extremism. Any nuanced, diplomatic, hearts-and-minds, carrot-and-stick approach is excoriated as French kumbaya appeasement. This debate isn’t just about you, Bear_nenno.

76

There is a famous quote by Nazi War Criminal Herman Göring that pretty well sums up the whole “support our troops” tactic.

I believe he said it at the Nurmberg trials or sometime after the war at any rate. But the quote is this:

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders. All you have to do is tell them that they are in danger of being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. "
[RIGHT]—Hermann Göring[/RIGHT]

Governments going to war have been using this tactic in one form or another to cow their opponents for ages.

Even Hitler used an interesting version of it. It worked kind of like this. When people would ask him about all the civilians being killed by the Nazis, he would say that he was daily obliged to send fine, young Aryan boys to fight and die for the Fatherland. And you want to start crying over a bunch of parasitic, worthless Jews, gypsies, Poles, mentally disabled, homosexuals, etc.? Do you seriously believe that their lives ar worth more than the lives of our fine, German boys?

Now of course, there is an obvious disconnect in logic here. But most people do not see it.

Right now, in Canada, we have a “Support our Troops” movement with ribbons and everything. What they are “supporting” is the Canadian troops fighting and dying in Afghanistan. Canada did not, thank goodness, send troops to Iraq, although the Conservatives, who are now in power, wanted to do so when the US invited us. And the Conservatives are using the same “Support our Troops” bullshit on Canadians.

I support our Canadian troops 100%! I understand they are well paid compared to most troops and I say, HOORAY! I do not begrudge them a cent of it. Spare no expense for their medical care, their amenities, food, education, whatever. I love all of them, and appreciate their devotion.

But don’t tell me that the minute my war-happy government decides to send troops abroad, I must support that war or I am an unpatriotic scoundrel. That is nothing but emotional blackmail.

And don’t tell me that our troops WANT to stay in Afghanistan and finish the “job” whatever that means. Because if that is true, that is the one case in which I do not “support our troops”. In a democracy, the troops do not choose which wars they support and do not support, or which wars our country will or will not participate in.

77

Oh god, Godwin’s law strikes again!

:wink:

78

What am I, chopped liver?

79

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Oh god, Godwin’s law strikes again!

:wink:
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Sooner or later, when the topic is ruthlessly enthusiastic military adventurism, someone will make reference to Canada as examplar. Never fails.

80

[QUOTE=elucidator]
Sooner or later, when the topic is ruthlessly enthusiastic military adventurism, someone will make reference to Canada as examplar. Never fails.
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Godwin’s 'Eh corollary?