# So who's the oldest figure in LOTR?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 5, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387 "2009-08-05T03:31:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@bramma23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bramma23)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/1 "2009-08-05T03:31:12Z")
It’s been at least a few years since I’ve read the books so my textual memory has lapsed but a question always plagued me. The ages for various characters are hinted at but never given concretely. Then again perhaps I’m mistaken and they are given. If that’s the case, even better. However, just as a completist, I’d be interested in some feedback on who people think is the oldest or perhaps ranking the oldest to the not as old.
Relevant characters: Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf, Sauron, Treebeard, Tom Bombadil, Elrond, Saruman, others that I may be forgetting.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/2 "2009-08-05T03:40:04Z")
Sauron, Gandalf (Olorin) and Saruman, since all were Maiar (angels, essentially) and would’ve been around at the very creation of the universe, although Bombadil is very, very old, too, and his exact status in the Tolkien legendarium is ambiguous, to say the least.
Any Elves and Ents would’ve come along quite a bit later, relatively speaking.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/3 "2009-08-05T03:40:23Z")
Tom Bombadil or Treebeard I think.
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### Author:  [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/4 "2009-08-05T04:06:15Z")
So what was Gandalf doing if there weren’t any Elves or Man to worry about?
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/5 "2009-08-05T04:25:50Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#):
>
> So what was Gandalf doing if there weren’t any Elves or Man to worry about?
Singing the universe into existence, then worrying about Melkor.
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Tom Bombadil or Treebeard I think.
Treebeard, and all the ents (Treebeard was not necessarily one of the fathers of ents, AFAIK) were created after the world, at the prompting of Yavanna after Aule made the dwarves. Bombadil? No one knows, although I believe only the elves call him “oldest.” I’m certain that he is no older than the world.
Yeah, it’s Sauron, Gandalf, and Saruman – they were there In The Beginning.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/6 "2009-08-05T04:29:47Z")
Of the elves, Cirdan the Shipwright is probably the oldest in Middle-Earth.
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/7 "2009-08-05T04:42:38Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Sauron, Gandalf (Olorin) and Saruman, since all were Maiar (angels, essentially)
The Balrog as well, though he was more a special-effect then a character.
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/8 "2009-08-05T04:58:58Z")
Oh, and the others – Galadriel, Celeborn, and Elrond – differ widely. Galadriel is the granddaughter of Finwe, one of those who awakened rather than being born. Celeborn’s ancestry and age are uncertain, but both were born during the Years of the Trees.
Elrond is much younger – descended from Finwe about three generations after Galadriel, and born after the destruction of the Trees (the years of the sun).
The unmentioned dwarves were created by Aule and given life by Iluvatar, but not permitted to waken before the elves; I believe the same is true of the ents, but I haven’t seen the source material.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/9 "2009-08-05T05:46:04Z")
Cirdan was a first-generation elf, was he not? I don’t think that there are any others of the first generation still in Middle-Earth as of the Third Age, so that would make him the oldest of the Children of Illuvatar. And I believe that the Elves awoke the first Ents, so he’d be older than Treebeard, too.
The various Maiar still have him beat, though, as well as probably Tom Bombadil (though who can really be sure about anything, when it comes to him?).
Oh, and even if you count the dwarves (created earlier but forced to sleep), they’re not immortal. Even Durin the Deathless is deathless only in the sense that the dwarves believe he gets reincarnated into his descendants: The most recent Durin was Durin VII.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/10 "2009-08-05T06:03:45Z")
I thought Treebeard was the oldest being bound to Middle Earth (not celestial like Gandalf, etc.) Isn’t that explicitly stated a few times in the Lord of the Rings?
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/11 "2009-08-05T06:38:16Z")
Gandalf says that Treebeard is the oldest of all living things, and Celeborn addresses him as “Eldest”; but Bombadil claims to have seen the first raindrop and the first acorn, and to have been around before the rivers and trees.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/12 "2009-08-05T12:16:43Z")
I think Bombadil is supposed to be a Theophany, therefore… h/Him.
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/13 "2009-08-05T15:19:27Z")
> [@FriarTed](#):
>
> I think Bombadil is supposed to be a Theophany, therefore… h/Him.
Uhh… I won’t mock you for disagreeing over the books, but… _Hell_, no. That sop utterly wrong I can’t even argue about it. You pretty much have to ignore not only all textual information but Tolkein’s own stated word to believe that.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/14 "2009-08-05T15:31:25Z")
Tom Bombadil:
> [@](#):
>
> Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evidenced by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning “Ancient” or “Belonging to the distant past”), Men Orald (compare to German: uralt, very old). All these names apparently mean “Eldest.” Treebeard also calls himself the eldest living being of Middle-earth and says that he was there before anyone else. However, Tolkien remarked in another context: “Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.”[1]
>
> SOURCE: [Tom Bombadil - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bombadil#cite_note-let153-0)
If you are counting Maiar and such then may as well just go to the source and say Eru Illuvatar is the oldest. Hard to beat that.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/15 "2009-08-05T16:12:51Z")
The Encyclopedia of Arda has this take on who is the “eldest” in Middle Earth.
FWIW:
> [@](#):
>
> A title for the eldest of all beings. Confusingly, it seems to apply to two different individuals; not only does Tom Bombadil claim it for himself, but Celeborn also uses it to address the old Ent Treebeard.
>
> Of these two, Tom probably has the better claim to the title. He said that he was able to remember ‘the first raindrop and the first acorn.’ (The Fellowship of the Ring I 7): if so, then it seems he must be older than Treebeard, who appeared after the first trees.
>
> However - as far as it’s possible to tell - Tom seems to be a magical being or a spirit of some kind, whereas Treebeard was a living, breathing creature, albeit an immensely old one. So, when Celeborn referred to Treebeard as ‘Eldest’, he wasn’t necessarily wrong. He may simply have meant ‘eldest living thing in Middle-earth’, which would probably have been true.
>
> SOURCE: [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/eldest.html](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/eldest.html)
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/16 "2009-08-05T17:25:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Cirdan was a first-generation elf, was he not?
It’s not clear that Cirdan was first generation (awoken, not birthed) or not. Tolkein apparently never said.
He was in existence before the journey of the elves reached Belegaer, which I believe puts him before Galadriel, who IIRC was born in the West.
So, of elves extant in M-E, Cirdan is probably the eldest.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/17 "2009-08-05T17:38:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evidenced by his Sindarin name Iarwain Ben-adar (Eldest and Fatherless). Dwarves called him Forn (Scandinavian, meaning “Ancient” or “Belonging to the distant past”), Men Orald (compare to German: uralt, very old). All these names apparently mean “Eldest.” Treebeard also calls himself the eldest living being of Middle-earth and says that he was there before anyone else.
Tom Bombadil . . . IS Treebeard!
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/18 "2009-08-05T17:43:59Z")
> [@](#):
>
> It’s not clear that Cirdan was first generation (awoken, not birthed) or not. Tolkein apparently never said.
Well, he was the patriarch of one of the three great houses of the Elves. One presumes that his father would hold that position, had he one.
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### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/19 "2009-08-05T18:21:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Of the elves, Cirdan the Shipwright is probably the oldest in Middle-Earth.
I don’t recall where, but I seem to recall that Cirdan was awakened with the first elves.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/20 "2009-08-05T20:16:23Z")
Where does Shelob fit into all this?
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