# So who's the oldest figure in LOTR?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 5, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387 "2009-08-05T03:31:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/21 "2009-08-05T20:26:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Well, he was the patriarch of one of the three great houses of the Elves. One presumes that his father would hold that position, had he one.
đ
Cirdan wasnât one of the Kings. Those were FinwĂ« of the Noldor, IngwĂ« of the Vanyar and ElwĂ« (later known as Thingol (from ElwĂ« Singollo, ElwĂ« of the Grey Cloak)) of the Teleri/Sindar.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/22 "2009-08-05T20:28:29Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> Where does Shelob fit into all this?
Shelob was the offspring of Ungoliant, who was a Maia in spider form whom Melkor recruited to help him kill the Trees and steal the Silmarils. Shelob was born well into the First Age, since Ungoliant came alone with Melkor to Middle-Earth from the dark shores south of the Calacirya when Melkor fled from the Noldor.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/23 "2009-08-05T20:36:11Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#):
>
> Uhh⊠I wonât mock you for disagreeing over the books, but⊠_Hell_, no. That sop utterly wrong I canât even argue about it. You pretty much have to ignore not only all textual information but Tolkeinâs own stated word to believe that.
Take it easy! _L_ Iâll have only one thing to go on for my idea (IIRC, as to who or what he is, the answer is given that âHe isâ, which just struck me as too close to âI Amâ) & I would like to see what Tolkien said.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/24 "2009-08-05T20:39:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Well, he was the patriarch of one of the three great houses of the Elves. One presumes that his father would hold that position, had he one.
Que?
The founders of the Three Houses were, according to Tolkienâs writings, Ingwe of the Vanyar, Finwe of the Noldor, and the brothers Elwe (\>Thingol Greycloak) and Olwe of the Teleri. Is that what you meant? Cirdan Shipwright was around in the First Age, living in Eglarest and Brithombar on the western shores of Beleriand before its downfall, then apparently in Mithlond thereafter until the Last Ship sails to the West.
ETA: Curse you, **jayjay**!
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/25 "2009-08-05T20:42:13Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> ETA: Curse you, **jayjay**!
Hey, yours was more complete. I completely forgot Olwë!
And **Chronos** âs supposition would have still not necessarily been right (that Cirdan wouldnât have been a patriarch of one of the Elf nations if heâd been born instead of awakened) because we have Fingon (and later Gil-Galad), who was High King of the Noldor _in Middle-Earth_, since his father FinwĂ« remained in Valinor.
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### Author:  [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/26 "2009-08-05T21:36:52Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#):
>
> Tom Bombadil . . . IS Treebeard!
In his first major motion picture appearance!!!
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/27 "2009-08-05T21:46:41Z")
> [@jayjay](#):
>
> And **Chronos** âs supposition would have still not necessarily been right (that Cirdan wouldnât have been a patriarch of one of the Elf nations if heâd been born instead of awakened) because we have Fingon (and later Gil-Galad), who was High King of the Noldor _in Middle-Earth_, since his father FinwĂ« remained in Valinor.
According to the Encyclopedia of Arda (I know I keep referencing it but in my experience it is the best source of info on all things Middle Earth) it is hard to say who was born or awakened:
> [@](#):
>
> **Olwë**
>
> Dates
> Awoke or was born by Cuiviënen[sup]1[/sup]
> Apparently still extant in Aman
>
> A lord of the Teleri, the brother of Elu Thingol. When Thingol was lost in Beleriand, Olwë took the lordship of those of his people who wished to continue to Aman, and led them there. He rules the Teleri at Alqualondë on the shores of the Blessed Realm.
>
> 1 - OlwĂ« appears to have belonged to the first generation of Elves, who awoke at CuiviĂ©nen rather than being born. If this is true, however, itâs hard to explain the fact that he had two brothers, ElwĂ«; and Elmo, so it is at least conceivable that he was born while the Elves still lived in the distant east, rather than awakening there.
>
> SOURCE: [The Encyclopedia of Arda - Olwë](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/o/olwe.html)
AndâŠ
> [@](#):
>
> **CĂrdan the Shipwright**
>
> Dates:
>
> Uncertain. Possibly awoke at Cuiviénen, probably sailed into the West with the last ship some time in the Fourth Age.
> Family:
>
> Not known. Possibly of the kin of Olwë.
>
> SOURCE: [The Encyclopedia of Arda - CĂrdan the Shipwright](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/c/cirdan.html)
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### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/28 "2009-08-05T21:47:06Z")
If Bombadil was around when the first raindrop fell, wouldnât he then have been a maiar helping to create the physical world?
Maybe he (in TLoTR) is what happens when a maiar goes senile, or so lost into their mission that they seem⊠âtouched in the headâ. (Like a human hermit lost in the mountains for thirty years, who now would be seen talking to himself, and needing a bath & shave.)
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/29 "2009-08-05T21:48:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Well, he was the patriarch of one of the three great houses of the Elves. One presumes that his father would hold that position, had he one.
In what alternative universe was he the patriarch of one of the three great houses? đ
Cirdan was a Teleri, of whom the head was ElwĂ« (Thingol). According to Wiki, the original head of the Teleri was Enel, the third elf to awake, but Iâm not sure what thatâs based upon (presumably something in HoME).
Cirdan was lord of the Falathrim, the Teleri which remained in M-E on the shores of Belegaer.
Edit: Sorry, didnât mean to pile onâŠ
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/30 "2009-08-05T21:59:28Z")
> [@mlees](#):
>
> If Bombadil was around when the first raindrop fell, wouldnât he then have been a maiar helping to create the physical world?
>
> Maybe he (in TLoTR) is what happens when a maiar goes senile, or so lost into their mission that they seem⊠âtouched in the headâ. (Like a human hermit lost in the mountains for thirty years, who now would be seen talking to himself, and needing a bath & shave.)
Nope. He is not Maiar.
He isâŠTom.
Tolkien specifically stated Tom is supposed to be an enigma and is not really ever explained.
My guess is Tom is some manifestation or personification of the âspiritâ of Middle Earth itself and thus came into being at the creation of the whole thing. Think of him as an emergent property wholly unintended or specifically put there by anyone else. As such he is pretty much neutral, sort of above or beyond it all. Just revels in âbeingâ.
I have no backup for any of that. Just my personal sense of him given not much else to go on.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/31 "2009-08-05T22:05:37Z")
The Valar were present at the Beginning. Were the Maiar as well? Itâs been too long since Iâve read.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/32 "2009-08-05T22:12:04Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> The Valar were present at the Beginning. Were the Maiar as well? Itâs been too long since Iâve read.
Yes. They all existed before Middle Earth was willed into existence then entered. Maiar are lesser Valar and are associated with a particular Valar.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/33 "2009-08-05T22:21:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> Yes. They all existed before Middle Earth was willed into existence then entered. Maiar are lesser Valar and are associated with a particular Valar.
Iâve always considered it interesting that both Sauron and Saruman were Maiar serving AulĂ« (the Vala of âTechnologyââŠmining and blacksmithing and creation of objects). I think it shows Tolkienâs basic antagonism to the encroachment of technology on the semi-/rural world that he loved. Even though AulĂ« is faithful to the Music and Eru, it seems to be âhisâ Maiar that are most tempted by evil.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/34 "2009-08-05T23:03:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Of the elves, Cirdan the Shipwright is probably the oldest in Middle-Earth.
CĂrdan was my first thought as well. Iâm not sure how old the Sprites/Maia are (Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, & presumably Tom & Goldberry are all Sprites). Some of them could be older than all the elves, though I donât think theyâre necessarily (or even likely) older than the earth itself.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/35 "2009-08-05T23:24:06Z")
JRRT wrote conflicting things about the origins of Cirdan, and whether he might be one of the âCuivienen-awakenedâ so there is no real canon about it. I prefer to think of Cirdan as one of the ones who woke up when Varda hung the Sickle in the sky as a threat to Melkor. But thatâs mainly because itâs more consistent with the rough drafts that I enjoy most.
But thereâs little doubt that Cirdan was the eldest of the Children of Iluvatar who appeared in LOTR. He was also pronounced âThe Wisest Elfâ in Middle-Earth by JRRT himself, who attributed this to Cirdanâs using the Palantir to communicate with his distant kin back in AvalonnĂ« to learn more.
Otherwise, Eru was first, then sprang the Ainur (both Valar, Maiar, and other Ainur who did not enter into Arda). Itâs hard to assign seniority to the Ainur, because they were created in the âTimeless Halls of Iluvatarâ.
It seems most likely that the spirits inhabiting the eagles and the ents (and the spiders) were also Ainur, whose origins were Timeless.
Tom Bombadil was _other_. Heck, one could posit that he was older than Eru, left over from some previous creation/universe. But it would be pointless to do so, the question cannot be answered.
Nomenclature: The Valar are the mightiest of the Ainur who entered into Arda. The Maiar are the lesser Ainur who entered into Arda. Thereâs a bunch of Ainur who stayed out of Arda, opting to hang with Eru.
Nitpicking: Middle-Earth is a region of Arda. Itâs not the creation itself, just as Europe is just a region on the globe.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/36 "2009-08-06T00:45:54Z")
**Qadqop** , I canât agree that the Ents are Ainur; Ents are able to have entings.
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/37 "2009-08-06T01:34:17Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#):
>
> **Qadqop** , I canât agree that the Ents are Ainur; Ents are able to have entings.
And eagles have eaglets.
> [@](#):
>
> 'O KementĂĄri, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared
Silmarillion, JRRT
I donât know how else to interpret âspirits from afarâ. JRRTâs mythos reserves most of those sorts of things for the Ainur.
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### Author:  [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/38 "2009-08-06T03:44:16Z")
And Melian gave birth to Luthien, and Ungoliant to Shelob.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/39 "2009-08-06T04:02:24Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#):
>
> And Melian gave birth to Luthien, and Ungoliant to Shelob.
Who got it on with Ungoliant? (Donât say Wormtongue).
Talk about doing the nasty.
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### Author:  [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/40 "2009-08-06T04:20:02Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#):
>
> And eagles have eaglets.
>
> Silmarillion, JRRT
>
> I donât know how else to interpret âspirits from afarâ. JRRTâs mythos reserves most of those sorts of things for the Ainur.
Kelvar and Olvar are Ents and Eagles?
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