# So who's the oldest figure in LOTR?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 5, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387 "2009-08-05T03:31:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/41 "2009-08-06T05:15:03Z")
> [@Omniscient](#):
>
> Kelvar and Olvar are Ents and Eagles?
Kelvar = fauna
Olvar = flora
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### Author:  [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/42 "2009-08-06T11:05:42Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> Who got it on with Ungoliant? (Don’t say Wormtongue).
>
> Talk about doing the nasty.
> [@](#):
>
> …from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth… For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them…
>
> - The Silmarillion
Since they only appeared around “the days of the delving of Angband”, I assume that the “other foul creatures of spider form” were natural beasts that had been twisted by Morgoth, just as he corrupted Elves into Orcs and (possibly) Ents into Trolls.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/43 "2009-08-06T16:12:58Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#):
>
> And eagles have eaglets.
>
> Silmarillion, JRRT
>
> I don’t know how else to interpret “spirits from afar”. JRRT’s mythos reserves most of those sorts of things for the Ainur.
Sorry but not seeing it.
I know you are expert on these things but by my understanding is all the Ainur are created by Iluvatar.
I cannot see how Yavanna could therefore be said to have created more Ainur in the form of Ents and what not. That would be wholly out of her purview.
Not to mention all the Ainur have to enter Arda of their own will. I doubt Yavanna could be said to have just sung them in of her own accord.
Wherever the souls came from, or were created from, I doubt you can call them Ainur by any stretch.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/44 "2009-08-06T16:39:23Z")
The “spirits from afar” are no doubt the same kind of being that entered into Huan the Hound, or into worgs and dragons or others of Morgoth’s creations. Obviously, since Morgoth was able to do this Illúvatar wasn’t involved in the mechanism. So no reason that Yavanna or Manwë couldn’t have done the same for ents or eagles.
But it is also obvious that JRRT meant to clearly distinguish them from the group of [men (and hobbits), dwarves, elves]. He referred to them as being inhabited by “spirits from afar”, which as Qadgop points out, he uses to refer to Ainur.
But “Ainur” is a general category, that _includes_ Valar and Maiar, without necessarily meaning that an Ainur is either a Valar or Maiar.
And while Ainur have to enter Arda of their own will, that’s not to say that they couldn’t decide to go based on events happening there. That’s how Tulkas came into Arda, after all. Perhaps there was a whole host of Ainur not to keen on the whole idea until Yavanna came up with the “not-quite-a-tree” option for them.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/45 "2009-08-06T17:06:59Z")
> [@Lightray](#):
>
> And while Ainur have to enter Arda of their own will, that’s not to say that they couldn’t decide to go based on events happening there. That’s how Tulkas came into Arda, after all. Perhaps there was a whole host of Ainur not to keen on the whole idea until Yavanna came up with the “not-quite-a-tree” option for them.
Still not seeing it.
Yavanna sung the Ents into existence then just had to hope some Maiar would be intrigued enough to come in and animate them? Same with the Eagles and so on?
What about the Dwarves that Aule created? Same thing? The whole race are really Maiar? (And didn’t Yavanna create the Ents in response to Aule creating the dwarves to protect her forests from them?)
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### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/46 "2009-08-07T00:28:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> Still not seeing it.
>
> Yavanna sung the Ents into existence then just had to hope some Maiar would be intrigued enough to come in and animate them? Same with the Eagles and so on?
>
> What about the Dwarves that Aule created? Same thing? The whole race are really Maiar? (And didn’t Yavanna create the Ents in response to Aule creating the dwarves to protect her forests from them?)
Let’s look at the larger Sil quote then, which preceded the earlier quote:
> [@](#):
>
> ‘If thou hadst thy will what wouldst thou reserve?’ said Manwë. ‘Of all thy realm what dost thou hold dearest?’
>
> ‘All have their worth,’ said Yavanna, ‘and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!’
>
> ‘This is a strange thought,’ said Manwë.
>
> ‘Yet it was in the Song,’ said Yavanna. ‘For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.’
>
> Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.
>
> Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: ‘O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: “Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.” But dost them not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.’
So we see that Yavanna didn’t call the Ents into existence, but thought that the trees might have a voice to speak for, and protect, plants. Eru then made it so that when the elves woke, spirits would come from afar then descent into the trees, for this purpose. And Eru, being omnipotent, etc. etc. etc. can be pretty damn sure that some spirits will be more than happy to take up that task.
Dwarves are another, well-explained case completely. Made independently of Eru, not in the original music, Eru still ‘adopted’ them as his children, with an existence more like that of Elves and men, to make their way in Middle-Earth. They were not designated as guardians of the forests, or Manwë’s agents in the skies, like the Ents or the Eagles.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/47 "2009-08-07T00:58:50Z")
Maybe think of it more like: some Ainur were backstage, waiting, for the point where Yavanna’s thoughts awaken and summon them, and they’re all like “Dude! That’s my cue!” and onstage and into the Song they went.
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### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/48 "2009-08-07T06:03:15Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#):
>
> Let’s look at the larger Sil quote then, which preceded the earlier quote:
>
> So we see that Yavanna didn’t call the Ents into existence, but thought that the trees might have a voice to speak for, and protect, plants. Eru then made it so that when the elves woke, spirits would come from afar then descent into the trees, for this purpose. And Eru, being omnipotent, etc. etc. etc. can be pretty damn sure that some spirits will be more than happy to take up that task.
This will probably bug you but know that I am really asking and not just trying to argue for the sake of argument (it’s been a long time since I read this stuff and never studied it as closely as I think you have).
That said, still not seeing it.
IIRC Eru had the Ainur (or Valar only?) sing a practice session, so to speak. Melkor was already trying to muck things up but it turned out Melkor, much to his dismay, improved things despite himself. Some time passes (in a timeless place but whatever) and then they have another go. The Ainur sing their song and Eru speaks a word and _poof_ Arda is born. Eru showed the Ainur parts of the song but none got the whole picture. Only Eru saw the whole of it and understood it beginning to end.
So, in some respect we can say Eru sees _all_ of it and is the ultimate source for everything.
But are we to say all living things in Middle Earth are Maiar if they are not human/elf/dwarf (not sure what to do with hobbits and all of Melkor’s mess of orcs and so on)?
I see nothing in your quote to suggest that Maiar are the Ents/Eagles/whatever. Eru presumably saw all of that but where is the notion that these are Maiar? I thought Maiar, like Valar, could take whatever form they chose. I recall nothing of them being bound to a particular creature.
Spirits from afar is vague but if they were Maiar then why not refer to them as Maiar? This is something different. Presumably there is a source of life that the Valar can tap as Middle Earth is formed. Trees are alive. Horses, dogs and all that are alive. They are not Maiar yet the Valar called them forth as the molded Middle Earth.
> [@](#):
>
> Dwarves are another, well-explained case completely. Made independently of Eru, not in the original music, Eru still ‘adopted’ them as his children, with an existence more like that of Elves and men, to make their way in Middle-Earth. They were not designated as guardians of the forests, or Manwë’s agents in the skies, like the Ents or the Eagles.
This one I do not get.
Eru was surprised? He did not see this coming?
Yes Eru adopted the dwarves but presumably there was some lag there when Aule created them. How were the dwarves animated (if you will) before Eru adopted them? If they were Maiar how could Eru “adopt” them and make them akin to men and elves?
Or is it Eru being Eru the whole process took a nanosecond after Aule made them and Eru adopted and granted dwarves status akin to elves/man?
Why do I seem to think Yavanna wanted Ents to protect the forests from dwarves though? Niggling memory but nothing to back that up.
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### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/49 "2009-08-07T06:52:19Z")
I’m pretty sure Gandalf referred to Treebeard as the oldest living thing.
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### Author:  [@Tom\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_P)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/50 "2009-08-07T06:59:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> How were the dwarves animated (if you will) before Eru adopted them?
They could only move by Aulë’s will.
[QUOTE=Ilúvatar to Aulë; Silmarillion, chapter 2]
Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?
[/QUOTE]
Aulë then regrets making the dwarves and moves to destroy them with his hammer. But Ilúvatar gives the dwarves life of their own and adopts them as his children.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/51 "2009-08-07T11:56:21Z")
**Qadgop** noted that they may have been _Ainur_, not necessarily Maiar. Ainur refers to spirits that existed before the creation of Arda. Valar and Maiar are two KINDS (or strengths, in a manner of speaking) of Ainur, but were not necessarily the ONLY two kinds. From **Qadgop** ’s analysis of this, I’m getting the impression that the Ents and Eagles were “inhabited” by Ainur that were weaker than the Maiar.
Hobbits are an offshoot of humanity. They more or less evolved into the short creatures we see in LOTR. So they have human spirits. Orcs were (presumably) corrupted from the Elves that Morgoth captured, so they have Elf spirits, though horribly twisted and degraded.
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### Author:  [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/52 "2009-08-07T12:53:34Z")
Seeing how both Cirdan and the ents appeared before ending of the trees and the rising of the moon the odd number of years between their awakening is just so much noise in the signal.
But embodied spirits in Arda progressively become fixed in their forms and more material than spiritual as time passes. They’re almost like a fire starter for entities outside of Eru’s children.
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### Author:  [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/53 "2009-08-07T13:01:58Z")
I think the implication is that all of the Ainur wandering around visible are “inhabiting” bodies. That certainly seems to be the case for the one example we’ve got in-text of this sort of thing – Gandalf, who got sent back into a new body.
One would assume that whatever spirits from afar Ainur inhabit Eagles and Ents and Worgs and such are _only_ capable of inhabiting the bodies they have, and not of assuming any number of alternate bodies (as, say, Sauron used to be able to do).
**Whack-a-Mole** , I’m not really clear on what your disconnect point is, here. Is it that you believe the Ents/Eagles/etc. to be the same type of spirits as elves/men/etc.? Or do you accept that they’re Ainur come in answer to Yavanna’s thoughts, but don’t see how new baby Ents/Eagles would get born if they’re all Ainur?
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### Author:  [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)
#### Post date: [August 7, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-whos-the-oldest-figure-in-lotr/505387/54 "2009-08-07T13:32:56Z")
Well I wasn’t suggesting these spirits clothed themselves as trees, but inhabited trees and have through time (and breeding) taken up more of the material of Arda and become more tree-ish.
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