# So Why does God mess with peop\[le heads? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287 "2004-09-27T11:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/41 "2004-09-28T19:58:33Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > You have been messing with your own head! AKA, “There is no spoon.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/42 "2004-09-28T20:12:20Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Interesting! But was God the frst to call them that in the Scriptures? Yep. Genesis 32: > [@](#): > > 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” > But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” > 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” > “Jacob,” he answered. > 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [5] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.” > 29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” > But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/43 "2004-09-28T21:58:36Z")
Great. Just great. The angel can’t win so he uses his hoodoo powers to dislocate Jacob’s hip. Fine superior being HE turned out to be. 😉 I had forgotten about that part of the story, though I should’ve remembered because people’s names are so hard to track you’d think it was a Russian novel. Which English translation of the Torah do you use? I use the King James Version because it’s florid, free, and online. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/44 "2004-09-28T22:37:26Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Great. Just great. The angel can’t win so he uses his hoodoo powers to dislocate Jacob’s hip. Fine superior being HE turned out to be. 😉 > > I had forgotten about that part of the story, though I should’ve remembered because people’s names are so hard to track you’d think it was a Russian novel. Which English translation of the Torah do you use? I use the King James Version because it’s florid, free, and online. Translation? I just look it up in the original Hebrew and then google till I find an accurate English version. The one I used above was called “KIV”, whatever that means. And I think it was more of a Jujitsu thing. Pressure points, you know. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/45 "2004-09-28T23:34:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And I think it was more of a Jujitsu thing. Pressure points, you know. So, angels, alledgedly spiritual beings, have to use JuJitsu?? Thousands of years before JuJitsu was invented? Angels who have the Power of God at their disposal??? Sounds like aliens to me! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/46 "2004-09-29T01:18:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And I think it was more of a Jujitsu thing. Wouldn’t that be Jewjitsu? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/47 "2004-09-29T01:32:14Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > No he’s (she’s?) not. He’s _concluding_ it. He’s saying that the act of commanding a father to kill his son _makes_ one a bully. I know she’s saying that. But Genesis doesn’t. Genesis says that God is within his rights to ask that, and that obedience to God should be more important to you than your son’s life. Obviously, if your values are different than that (and most people’s are), you’re going to have a problem with that story. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/48 "2004-09-29T04:59:43Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > In fact, I don’t believe there is any instance at all in which a moral obligagtion to other people would not supercede an obligation to God. Understood…but that comes from a value system which sees human beings as worthwhile entities _independent of their relationship to G-d_. Genesis, on the other hand, teaches that human beings were created in the image of G-d. We obviously have an obligation not to harm other human beings…that’s clear in many parts of the Bible. But that obligation stems from the valuing the human being as a derivative of G-d. Obviously, on such a basis, the word of G-d is to be obeyed over the assumption of value based on derivation from G-d. (your other point, about free will vs. omniscience, I’m going to defer to a later post to isolate it from the Abraham-specific discussion) Captain Amazing: > [@](#): > > What I wonder about the whole thing is that, a few chapters before the binding of Isaac, Sodom is destroyed, but before it is, Abraham pleas with God to spare the city. Why is Abraham willing to argue with God to save a city of evil people, but not to save his own son? The answer here is, that G-d is not _punishing_ Isaac, so an appeal for mercy would not address the issue of saving Isaac’s life. The people of Sodom, Gomorrah, etc. were being punished. So Abraham, seeing that as unjust (if in fact 50, 45, 40, etc righteous people could be found in the cities), pleads for G-d’s mercy to save their lives, to give them a chance to mend their ways. But in this case, the EXACT OPPOSITE is true. By asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, he is acknowledging Isaac’s perfection (recall that G-d does not accept sacrifices that are either physically imperfect or which come from a source of dubious spiritual character, e.g., prostitution payments). G-d is telling Abraham that Isaac should be _elevated_, i.e., that by being brought as a sacrifice, it will be a higher level of spiritual attainment for him. The test was, can Abraham get beyond the immediate, overt cruelty and trust that what G-d is asking is something beneficial? Is Abraham’s faith in G-d deeper than his own human conception of right and wrong? dropzone: > [@](#): > > And this shows why I’m such a lousy religious person. I am incapable (at this point in my spiritual development) to make that conceptual leap. “Man, you must be puttin’ me on,” so to speak. You’re in plenty good company. There’s only been one Abraham. blowero: > [@](#): > > Sounds circular to me. > > Why do you do God’s bidding? Because He is the source of ultimate goodness. > > How do you know God is the source of ultimate goodness? Because everything he commands is good. > > How do you know everything God commands is good? Because He is the source of ultimate goodness. No, I think Abraham’s conclusion that G-d is good stemmed from a self-developed theology, bolstered by being party to several miraculous occurrences. Once that conclusion was reached independently of knowing any of G-d’s commands, then came the conclusion that what G-d commands must be good. > [@](#): > > But only retroactively. He didn’t know that would happen beforehand. True, but he had faith that what would happen would ultimately be for his, and the world’s, and even Isaac’s (possibly otherworldly) benefit. In the end, the _specific way_ his faith was justified was to discover that G-d did not desire Isaac’s death. manhattan: > [@](#): > > So here’s my question. By the time Abraham was called upon to sacrifice Isaac, any reasonable person would have concluded that not only is G-d real, but that obeying Him reaped substantial dividends and that disobeying Him was a Really Bad Idea. Does this, in the tradition of Judaism, devalue Abraham’s obedience in any way? Today’s Jews are not called upon to make sacrifices on the level of Abraham (or any number of others in the stories of the bible), but they also don’t have the benefit of personally meeting G-d and seeing his works or wrath. A fair question, which is ultimately impossible to answer. We believe that G-d judges every soul based on all factors that have affected its decision-making, and certainly this would be included. On the other hand, one does not achieve such a high level of revealation unless one has managed to be extremely righteous without it first. trandallt: > [@](#): > > Well I was using your words so perhaps I misinterpreted. What I meant to say is how is an outsider to know whether someone who claims to hear the voice of God is delusional or not? Your statement (below) presumed that you can tell when someone is delusional. > > “Can we please not equate it with someone who, in modern times, delusionally claims to hear G-d? Even if you don’t believe the story in the Bible is true, it at least has to be taken in that context.” I will not claim to be an expert in delusion nor a mind-reader. My point was merely to say that however we might objectively view someone today who claims to have heard G-d’s voice (and Diogenes, in referring to “voices in the head”, is clearly amongst them) , it is irrelevant to any discussion of the Abraham story, since it must be taken in the context of having been true prophecy. Alessan: > [@](#): > > Abraham failed his test, which is why his descendants were not called the Children of Abraham, but rather Children of Israel - Israel being the name Abe’s grandson Jake was given for beating the crap out of an angel. No, the reason we’re called “Children of Israel” is because we are not the children of Ishmael or any of Abraham’s later progeny or of Esau. It in no way means that Abraham failed his test, and G-d’s reaction to Abraham’s behavior is quite clearly not one that denotes disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/49 "2004-09-29T07:55:37Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > No, I think Abraham’s conclusion that G-d is good stemmed from a self-developed theology, bolstered by being party to several miraculous occurrences. Once that conclusion was reached independently of knowing any of G-d’s commands, then came the conclusion that what G-d commands must be good. But do “several miraculous occurrences” equal “source of ultimate goodness”? That’s quite a leap in logic. I have certainly done at least several good deeds in my life, yet I would hardly describe myself as “all good”. And I would hardly expect those who have witnessed my several good deeds to conclude that I am _incapable_ of doing wrong. It is conceivable for a being to be capable of both good AND bad, so observing _some_ good does not prove that the being is incapable of evil. So, without resorting to circular reasoning, Abraham’s conclusion, as you have laid it out, is unwarranted. If Abraham were to attempt to reach a reasoned conclusion, as you suggest, he would have to conclude that since God is asking him to do evil, that God is therefore _not_ the source of ultimate goodness. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/50 "2004-09-29T14:02:18Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > **JRDelirious,** > > I get it. I am not disputing that Abraham did communicate with God. I am wondering how anyone can know that God i\*s not \*speaking to someone _today_. **cmkeller** seems to have that ability, as evidenced by the quote in my post, and I was asking him to justify it. I will ask you the same thing. If one grants that God does in fact speak to humans, how can anyone justify dismissing \*anyone’s \* claim to such communication as "delusional’? Ah, but you see, to **me** it’s not a problem since “Abraham Ordered to Sacrifice Son”, **to me** , is a legendary inspirational story about submission to/trust in God, not a clinical report. _Within the literary universe conformed by the Book of Genesis_, God speaks to people directly, women get turned into pillars of salt, and wrestling angels use illegal nerve-blocks to get out of fights. But that is not the Real Life[sup]TM[/sup] here-and-now that you and I live in outside those pages. **Here** , today, standing upon this Earth, as I have _no way of obtaining any verifiable impartial-observer evidence that “this is God speaking”_, I cannot accept “God told me to do it” as a justification for some atrocity. But we can still accept it as part of the plot of this didactic tale, and say “OK, let’s assume that this WAS God: _what does this story tell us about the theology the author of Genesis wanted to preach?_” and not get stuck on whether it’s about “obeying the voices in his head”. More orthodox or literalist believers, of course, would have other takes on it and would provide you their explanations. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/51 "2004-09-29T14:59:09Z")
So, **JRD** , you believe the story is fictional? Or, better, a parable where the “truth” in the story does not come from actual events but from how it relates Abraham’s ultimate relationship with God? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/52 "2004-09-29T22:33:58Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > A fair question, which is ultimately impossible to answer. We believe that G-d judges every soul based on all factors that have affected its decision-making, and certainly this would be included. On the other hand, one does not achieve such a high level of revealation unless one has managed to be extremely righteous without it first. I’d disagree with you on the last bit, as G-d has frequently shown himself to the unrighteous (as when he scolded King Belshazzar prior to his assassination in order to give Daniel a chance to shine) – he pretty clearly uses His physical presence for a variety of purposes. But I can definitely see how your scenario would apply in the specific instance of Abraham and that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your answer. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/53 "2004-09-30T13:55:35Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Or, better, a parable where the “truth” in the story does not come from actual events but from how it relates Abraham’s ultimate relationship with God? Right. As I said, those with orthodox or literalist beliefs may take other approaches. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287/54 "2004-09-30T17:00:17Z")
This may be a slight hijack, but this thread reminds me of _Paradise Lost_. Milton originally wrote the epic as a means by which to communicate the reasoning behind the Fall of man, and to justify God’s role in it. However, to a post-modern reader, Satan comes off as a good guy, echoing many of the anti-God sentiments expressed here (and with which I agree), and God comes off as staging the entire thing for his Son’s glory. From a human standpoint, it seems capricious in the extreme. So time and context can change the reading- what would have been an example of Abraham’s unswering obedience in one time might come across as God being a total ass in another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-god-mess-with-peop-le-heads/266287.md?page=2)