# So - why does US spurn Kurds? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016 "2015-07-02T02:37:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/61 "2015-07-03T22:43:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I may have missed something. When did I advocate that? I don’t have any ideas of how to make that situation better, but it’s definitely not “Palestinians deserve to have their state back.” As mentioned, moder multi-ethnic states work, ethnic homelands are a recipe for generations of bloodbaths. So, to be clear, do you see Israel as a working modern multi-ethnic state? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/62 "2015-07-03T22:45:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Look, you either support self-determination for ethnic groups that seek it, _or_ you uphold received borders against such seekers, _or_ you stay out of it. With respect to any one region, at least, you can’t do “both” of any of these. Sure I can. If the Kurds come to me asking for help creating Kurdistan, I say “no-thanks.” If they fight a civil war with Iraq, and win, then I’ll recognize the new state. But they have to win, which means Iraq recognizes them as a sovereign state. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/63 "2015-07-03T23:58:25Z")
A good article on the Kurds today: [Kurds tell Jpost: 'Just send us weapons to defeat ISIS' - The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Kurds-tell-Jpost-Just-send-us-weapons-to-defeat-ISIS-407840) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/64 "2015-07-04T00:15:25Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > ). > . > > As for a united ethnic Kurdistan of Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria, I’ll just mention again what a Kurdish acquaintance of mine ( Iranian nationalist by the way, anti-Kurdish state ) once told me. He’s a Sorani-speaker and once tried to have a conversation with a Turkish Kurd who spoke Kurmanji. He says the other guy might as well have been speaking martian. They had to resort to German to make each understood. No one should make the mistake of thinking that because they share a common ethnonym that all Kurds are automatically “one people.” It’s a pretty arguable point, really. No one is remotely arguing that every Kurdish majority region should be slabbed off to a Kurdistan. I would be seriously baffled if the intent of the OP was that we should arm Turkish rebel Kurds. Come on man. The Iraqi and Syrian Kurds have a strong foothold. Should we back those guys. Your statement here is a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/65 "2015-07-04T01:13:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No one is remotely arguing that every Kurdish majority region should be slabbed off to a Kurdistan. I would be seriously baffled if the intent of the OP was that we should arm Turkish rebel Kurds. Come on man. The Iraqi and Syrian Kurds have a strong foothold. Should we back those guys. Your statement here is a strawman. Actually the Turks have been mentioned by folks like **ralph124c** , it’s Iran that hasn’t been referenced by anyone but me ;). For that matter the putative Kurdish entity I’m guessing **Sam Stone** was thinking of was as proposed in the never implemented Treaty of Sèvres largely to be carved out of modern Turkey. Anyway l wasn’t intending to strawman anyone in that paragraph, just adding an oblique addendum. It’s a pet topic of mine. As to Iraq, which the OP most directly referenced, I think I made it clear I think it’s a crap idea. We should only deal with the central government, not de facto foster the independence of semi-autonomous enclaves. Syria is more complicated, not least because they are getting aid from the Iraqi Kurds. Like I said at that point you are taking an active side in the Syrian Civil War. My opinions on that is conflicted, but lean towards being opposed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/66 "2015-07-04T01:21:25Z")
Ralph124c clearly has no clue what he is talking about so you probably shouldn’t spend too much of your debating efforts on his account. Imho, the central government of Iraq is shit. And supporting them is flushing money down the toilet. I see, but disagree here with your philosophical point on nation building, but your option is clearly not going to work in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/67 "2015-07-04T01:41:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Imho, the central government of Iraq is shit. And supporting them is flushing money down the toilet. I see, but disagree here with your philosophical point on nation building, but your option is clearly not going to work in this case. I don’t really have a great response to this, as I agree the Iraqi government sucks. And Iraqi Kurdistan does seem to be at least a modicum more stable and functional. My idealistic and pragmatic impulses frequently war with each other, with resultant headaches. But in for a penny, in for a pound. At this point I think trying to work with Iraq per se is the appropriate way forward until it fails completely. We substantially created this mess, directly or not, intentionally or not. If we’re serious about “nation-building” and we’ve decided we’re going to continue involve ourselves _at all_, throwing in the towel on Iraq at this point seems premature. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/68 "2015-07-04T01:57:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ralph124c clearly has no clue what he is talking about so you probably shouldn’t spend too much of your debating efforts on his account. > > Imho, the central government of Iraq is shit. And supporting them is flushing money down the toilet. I see, but disagree here with your philosophical point on nation building, but your option is clearly not going to work in this case. CarnalK, you should know better than to directly insult another poster in Great Debates. Warning issued. Please restrain yourself in the future. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/69 "2015-07-04T02:28:50Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So, to be clear, do you see Israel as a working modern multi-ethnic state? It’s a modern multi-ethnic state that is saddled with an unfixable problem stemming from the idea of ethnic homelands. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/70 "2015-07-04T02:34:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > From a “realpolitik” perspective, the notion that a unitary Iraqi state is likely to emerge from the present conflict is looking more and more like a pipe dream. > > While I think everyone would want “peace and economic integration”, there remains that little issue of the existance of ISIS, which seems to stand in the way of either. The government of Iraq appears utterly incapable of fighting them. The Kurds seem to have better abilities in that direction - at least, inside their own territories. Should fealty to the notion of the sanctity of existing nation-states prevent us from helping them out, or not? The thing is, weapons don’t turn in to pumpkins when the clock strikes midnight. Handing people arms because they seem like generally decent folks and are fighting someone we don’t like has turned around and bit us in the ass again, and again, and again. Every choice we make is going to have implications for decades, and it’d be idiotic not to think those through. Plenty of other folks seem eager to supply the Kurds. And if you really want to see an idnepedent Kurdistan, their support is going to be critical to their long-term viability, while overt US support will ultimately be a liability. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/71 "2015-07-04T04:24:43Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > CarnalK, you should know better than to directly insult another poster in Great Debates. > > Warning issued. Please restrain yourself in the future. Umm, ok. Seems a little odd but ok. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/72 "2015-07-05T05:24:51Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Kurds? No whey. 😉 > [@Terr](#): > > Why not help the Kurds? They seem to be the only local fighting force that is half-way competent, they are not (AFAIK) extremists, and they are enemies of our enemies. What’s the problem? They are also potentially the enemies of our friends? Anybody remember what happened when we supplied weapons to the enemy of our enemy in Afghanistan? You know, Osama Bin Laden? > [@CarnalK](#): > > You know these sentences almost contradict each other. No, they don’t. A distant foreign power randomly drawing lines is not the same thing as regional groups establishing sensible social and cultural boundaries, and then allowing for ethnic diversity within those boundary divisions. Because all ethnic groups overlap with other ethnic groups. There is no clean boundary for Kurds versus Sunnis versus Shiites. And as pointed out, even lumping all Kurds together, for example, is just asking for trouble, because they are only ethnically the same depending on how broadly you define the groups. Once you filter out the Turks and the whatevers and the whosits, and are left with only Kurds in the room, they then get into a fight over which Kurd ethnicity is the group in charge. Or maybe they don’t get in a fight, but the point is they aren’t one monolithic group, any more than all Muslims are a monolithic group, or all Christians, or all Greeks, or all Chinese. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Given that the Kurds lost their homeland when their country was split up, and given that they seem to be about the only people in the region who are reasonably moderate and have their act together, maybe this is the perfect time to allow them to reconstitute their homeland. Syria and Iraq are in tatters, Turkey is moving in a more Islamist direction… Maybe weakening those powers to the benefit of a moderate, prosperous Kurdistan is a decent thing to do. It should at least be considered. That is, perhaps, a point for consideration. On the other hand, Turkey is an existing NATO partner, and you don’t want to break that lightly. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Theoretically I agree with **even sven** - ethnic nationalism generally sucks IMESHO. I regard the breakup of the former Yugoslavia as a preventable tragedy. See, another example of ethnic nationalism creating chaos. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/73 "2015-07-05T05:38:51Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > No, they don’t. A distant foreign power randomly drawing lines is not the same thing as regional groups establishing sensible social and cultural boundaries, and then allowing for ethnic diversity within those boundary divisions. Because all ethnic groups overlap with other ethnic groups. There is no clean boundary for Kurds versus Sunnis versus Shiites. Kurds are Sunni, fyi\*. Sunni isn’t an ethnic group at all anymore than Catholic is. \*eta OK, 98% are… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/74 "2015-07-05T05:47:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Kurds are Sunni, fyi\*. Sunni isn’t an ethnic group at all anymore than Catholic is. > > \*eta OK, 98% are… If you’re talking Iraqi Kurds, yes. But globally, there are Shia Kurds, Yazidi Kurds, Zoroastrian Kurds and even a smattering of Christian Kurds. From talking to some Kurds, they are not fanatical about religion and value ethnicity over religion. At least the ones I spoke to. From googling: [Yarsanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarsanism) - 1 million followers, not to be sneezed at. Never heard about it before. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/75 "2015-07-05T05:51:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re talking Iraqi Kurds, yes. But globally, there are Shia Kurds, Yazidi Kurds, Zoroastrian Kurds and even a smattering of Christian Kurds. > > From talking to some Kurds, they are not fanatical about religion and value ethnicity over religion. At least the ones I spoke to. Yes, I was going to qualify Iraqi Kurds. In Iran they are apparently evenly split between Shiite and Sunni. But my point stands with yours. Sunni and Shiite are not ethnic groups; Kurdish is and they care about it. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/76 "2015-07-05T06:10:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Kurds are Sunni, fyi\*. Sunni isn’t an ethnic group at all anymore than Catholic is. > > \*eta OK, 98% are… And that changes my point how? There are various sundry groups that are in various stages of conflict. Kurds aren’t a monolithic group. Ethnic groups within Iraq and Syria and everywhere else in question may have enclaves, but they are not exclusive and are intermingled with at least some other ethnic groups in the same regions. Religious banners of Sunni and Shiite aren’t mapped 1:1 with other political/social entities in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/77 "2015-07-05T06:37:08Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And that changes my point how? That didn’t really change your point. But this part of your point was not relevant, really: “Anybody remember what happened when we supplied weapons to the enemy of our enemy in Afghanistan? You know, Osama Bin Laden?” US was supplying weapons to religious extremists in Afghanistan such as Hekmatyar. If the US limited its weapons supplies to the popular moderates such as Ahmad Shah Massoud, the results would have been much different (though the Russians’ withdrawal would have taken longer, probably). Kurds are not extremist, and have no history of religious extremism, at least in comparison with almost every other ethnic group in the area, so there is no comparison with Afghanistan where the US should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/78 "2015-07-05T07:27:30Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And that changes my point how? > > There are various sundry groups that are in various stages of conflict. Kurds aren’t a monolithic group. Ethnic groups within Iraq and Syria and everywhere else in question may have enclaves, but they are not exclusive and are intermingled with at least some other ethnic groups in the same regions. > > Religious banners of Sunni and Shiite aren’t mapped 1:1 with other political/social entities in the area. Well it doesn’t change your point, but I don’t get why you’re arguing with me about it. Of course there’s overlap and differemces between Kurds. I never said anything about lumping all Kurds together. But the group in Syria and the one in Iraq are each fairly cohesive. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/79 "2015-07-05T09:35:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Kurds are not extremist, and have no history of religious extremism, at least in comparison with almost every other ethnic group in the area, so there is no comparison with Afghanistan where the US should have known better. You don’t think this makes them incapable of cruel and inhumane acts, do you? I can easily imagine a situation where religiously moderate Kurds decide to wipe out, say, a potentially troublesome Arab village. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/80 "2015-07-05T09:37:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re talking Iraqi Kurds, yes. But globally, there are Shia Kurds, Yazidi Kurds, Zoroastrian Kurds and even a smattering of Christian Kurds. > > From talking to some Kurds, they are not fanatical about religion and value ethnicity over religion. At least the ones I spoke to. > > From googling: [Yarsanism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarsanism) - 1 million followers, not to be sneezed at. Never heard about it before. [Interesting - if somewhat thin - article](http://www.niqash.org/en/articles/society/5014/Thanks-To-Extremism-Iraqis-Revive-Ancient-Religion.htm) about how Zoroastrianism is making a comeback among modern Kurds. I’d take it with a grain of salt, though, seems mainly anecdotal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016.md?page=5)