# So, why is Paganism a problem for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015 "2000-10-23T20:59:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/21 "2000-10-24T01:31:12Z")
BTW, having reread my post, I realized that I might have unintentionally implied that no Christian would feel right about attending a pagan ceremony. The part in quotes was intended as my opinion of what Hastur’s friend, feeling as Hastur reported, ought to have done. Note to pagan friends online: I expect an invitation! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/22 "2000-10-24T01:39:05Z")
Allright, brand new as I am to paganism I’ve been giving this problem the benefit of my thought. My last question is kind of moot. I guess a Christian may feel that Paganism is a deliberate knock on their religion, or be uncomfortable with it, and politely decline to attend as Polycarp suggests. Hey, it’s their religion. If they have a legitimate problem with your ceremony that’s their problem. I think it’s kind of narrow-minded to refuse to attend on those grounds, but I can understand it. However, not to reply is simply unacceptable. It’s common courtesy, and you have a right to be miffed. However, (and this is a biggee,) you’re making a mistake by reacting on 2nd hand information. Hearing it from a friend isn’t good enough. If you like and know this person well enough to invite them to your ceremony, you owe it to the relationship and your friendship to deal with it personally. It is possible that the friend that told you he was offended by the ceremony had it wrong, or was repeating a rumor. It’s possible that the invitation got lost in the mail, or was innocently forgotten about or misplaced. What I suggest is the following: Make an innocent phone call. Call him up, chat, ask him how he’s doing. Then mention the reason for the call. You sent him an invitation. You haven’t heard anything back, and you hope it didn’t get lost in the mail, but you are wondering if he’s planning on attending. Wait for his reaction, and act accordigly. It might just be a big misunderstanding, or he might have a problem with the “paganism” due to ignorance that you can work out. Most likely he will lie to you and say that he responded, it must have gotten lost, but he has an irrevocable commitment at that time. At any rate, you’ll have your answer. If he’s been your friend you owe him that much, and it’s always more satisfying to get the answer straight. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/23 "2000-10-24T03:06:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Friedo’s post inspires another question. The neopagan use of iconography that some Christians think of as Satanic, was this choice made ironically, or is it mere coincidence? What happened is that the Church in Europe took symbols from older, pagan religions and said they were Satanic, in order to win converts and make sure people stay with the church. You can’t really blame them, since it was Church policy (and still is, to a large extent) that all other religions are wrong, and their practitioners are going to Hell. The cliche visualization of the devil, with horns and stuff, is really an image used by many previous pagan religions as a fertility god. Thus, the neopagans wanted to worship (or use) the same symbols as these old pre-Christian religions. (many neopagans refer to the “old religion” a belief that pre-monotheistic religions were all very similar). Thus, when Christian folk see people idolizing a big dude with horns and stuff, they associate it with Satan. The pentacle (five pointed star with a circle around it) has been a sacred symbol for thousands of years. The medeival Satanists of Europe, not knowing any better, adopted it and other symbols because they were told that they were Satanic. So you end up with a lot of confusion. Contemperary Satanists (followers of LeVay) generallly use an upside-down pentacle (two points on top) and neopagans generally use a right-side up one (one point on top.) ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/24 "2000-10-24T03:29:32Z")
Hastur: First of all, congratulations. Good luck to you and your SO. Second of all, not responding to an invitiation is inexcusable, and is more than enough reason for a pit thread. That’s about the rudest thing I’ve ever heard, unless he never actually GOT the invite. Third, however, I have to take issue with your anger over his REASON for not attending. I think it’s a perfectly legitimate reason. Think about it. If you believed that you could only get into heaven by honoring your own god(s), and that by acknowledging or witnessing any other religious acts, particularly pagan ones, would you give that up just to watch a wedding? Personally, if I were the believing type (I’m an atheist, btw), I can very much see not attending such a ceremony based on my beliefs. So, in answer to the topic question, it’s a problem for me because it could make me go to hell. I think that’s a pretty valid reason. (Disclaimer: I am an atheist, and would have gladly attended if I had been invited, and if I knew you. I’m just playing devil’s advocate here.) ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/25 "2000-10-24T03:46:52Z")
**Hastur** : congrats on the hand-fasting! May you live long and love as long as you live! **Scylla** : a couple books worth reading on Neo-Paganism; _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler. Get the 1986 edition. It’s considered the most authorative text on the modern pagan movement. Another, _Triumph of the Moon_ by Ronald Hutton. Just released last year. I’m plowing thru it right now and it’s **great!** \*\*friedo wrote: The cliche visualization of the devil, with horns and stuff, is really an image used by many previous pagan religions as a fertility god.\*\* That’s an interesting theory but according to Hutton (who’s book I cited above), there’s not been a truly academic study of the origin of the “devil” symbol/icon. Master’s thesis anyone? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/26 "2000-10-24T03:48:14Z")
1. I’m not acting on second hand information as the person who is not attending asked our mutual friend to tell me that he wasn’t attending. What our mutual friend shared was the why as well. 2. My perspective on Christianity does not let me think that the Christian God would be against him attending my wedding. I’ve read the Bible and related works(including expunged Bible sections) and well… think that people have skewed a very nice faith with hate and divisiveness. I’m not going to make or try to get him to see it my way or attend my nuptuals. But… I think he’s wrong and I think he’s a coward on multiple levels. 3. Thanks and blessings to all of you who have congratulated me and are wishing us well. It means a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/27 "2000-10-24T10:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Friedo’s post inspires another question. The neopagan use of iconography that some Christians think of as Satanic, was this choice made ironically, or is it mere coincidence? \*\* Some of the symbolism of the neopagan faith goes back to paleolithic times. Some of it is more modern. The pentagram, altho very occasionally used in the pre-Christain era, was apparently no big deal as a symbol. (Altho there was the 'star" of Astarte, etc, but that is clearly a star, wich occ looks a bit like a pentangle). It was used somewhat as a cabalistic symbol, byt there the hexagram was much more common. Since wicca/neopaganism is, in many senses, a very NEW faith, they invented a lot of stuff. To some extent, some of it was taken from Satanism, possibly in an attempt to “look bad”. Same as the word “witch”, which, contrary to belief, was coined originally as a term for Satanist, and not for pagan priestesses (since by Shakespeares time, there were none to speak of). True, the word comes from the root word “wicce”, which does have more of the meaning the Neopagans want. I will point out, that in a few of the more radical Moslem nations, they will kill you for being a “Pagan”. Some Christians are intolerant of Wiccanism/Neopaganism, true, but mostly out of ignorance, I am afraid. They think it is some sort of “satanistic” rite, and since the Wiccans do nothing to divest themselves of the words/symbols borrowed (or used 1st, or simple used in tandem) from satanism, they can hardly be entirely faulted for that ignorance. Then of course, there is the huge group of teenaged girls (and some boys, also) who go “goth”, and freely & ignorantly mix Wiccanism/Neopaganism and Satanism\*- and who are oh-so-visable. Yes, it is unfair to judge a legitimate faith on the actions of them, but other faiths are judged by non-representational groups also. (Christians are often judged by the actions of the “Fundies”- which most of us disagree with strongly) My Church is very tolerant of Paganism, especially the Celtic branches. \*and a bit of Voodoo, thown in for good measure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/28 "2000-10-24T13:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny Angel \* > I have been to weddings that featured painfully long eucharists Am I the only one who read this line and thought of a priest holding a 3’ long eucharist? Y’know, the kind you order in for a big football party and set on a table so that people can just wander up, take a cross-section, and bless themselves with the Body of Christ during commerical breaks? Y’know, sort of like one of those “super submarine sandwiches” for parties, except promising eternal salvation instead of heartburn. Anyways, Hastur, thanks for the explanation and best of luck to thou and thine. ---
**Author:** ![Tabithina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f04885/32.png) [@Tabithina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabithina)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/29 "2000-10-24T13:18:55Z")
**Hastur** , I am sorry that your friend feels that way. I wanted to join the others in this thread in congratulating you and your partner on your upcoming handfasting. I think it’s wonderful, and I would be happy to attend if I knew you, and you had asked me to come. (I don’t know much about pagans, but every time I’ve taken the religion selector test, I score 100 for “Neo-Pagan”!🙂 ) Best wishes, Kris ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/30 "2000-10-24T13:31:26Z")
Yes. Thanks for the info, and good luck! Sorry your friend didn’t have the courtesy to at least speak to you directly. That sucks, but… Your probably better off without him. My sister in law had a wedding last May, and a bunch of her severe Church people showed up. They just walked around frowning about alcohol and lengths of dresses. Who needs it? ---
**Author:** ![SqrlCub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SqrlCub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SqrlCub)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/31 "2000-10-24T14:28:53Z")
What Christians think of as Satan (red with horns and tail) was the original Santa Claus. However, the current image of Santa is brought to us by Coca-Cola company. The previous one was brought to us by the Dutch. Look at [http://www.lnstar.com/mall/main-areas/santafaq.htm](http://www.lnstar.com/mall/main-areas/santafaq.htm) for more info. PS. Satanism isn’t based off of Christianity. That was a LeVayen shock tactic. Devil-worship is the actual worship of Satan whereas Satanism is the worship of the self as a human animal. [http://www.churchofsatan.org](http://www.churchofsatan.org) has more info. HUGS! Sqrl PS. Congrats on your upcoming handfasting. Are you going the year and a day route or the permanent one? ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Fortune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Commander\_Fortune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commander_Fortune)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/32 "2000-10-25T12:33:27Z")
> [@](#): > > .) The modern Satanist movement has been revived by Tim LeVay and is pretty passive. **Anton.** You mean Anton Levay. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/33 "2000-10-25T17:15:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Commander Fortune \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > .) The modern Satanist movement has been revived by Tim LeVay and is pretty passive. > > **Anton.** You mean Anton Levay. > \*\* Yes, I do. I’m an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/34 "2000-10-25T17:27:05Z")
Anton LeVay ( author of _The Satanic Bible_) – Tim LaHaye (creator of the _Left Behind_) series – sounds like an easy mistake to me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/35 "2000-10-25T17:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SqrlCub \* > **What Christians think of as Satan (red with horns and tail) was the original Santa Claus. However, the current image of Santa is brought to us by Coca-Cola company.** I doubt that this is quite right, but I don’t have the facts at hand to argue the point. Harvard University Press is bringing out a book next month that I’m looking forwad to…a mammoth history of modern Christmas. Here’s a link if anyone else is interested. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674003187/qid%3D972494917/103-7472504-0993407](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674003187/qid%3D972494917/103-7472504-0993407) ---
**Author:** ![SqrlCub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SqrlCub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SqrlCub)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/36 "2000-10-25T19:29:26Z")
Uke, what do you not think is right? Coca Cola designed the cute, cuddly, fat Santa as a marketing tool. That seems to me the most universally accepted Santa now. Other Santas ranged from skinny and mangy to a simply travelling priest. You have to remember that I am a Santa Fetishist so I have some good facts. Although I like the Coca Cola Santa best. (In the realm of TMI, I have a Santa Uniform that I make DC wear sometimes.) I can’t find an exact link that is serious about Christians changing the previous Santa (not called that but the same myth) into Satan. I read it on a weird news thing a while back and have seen it documented in other places. I can’t seem to find the links though. I am sure as Christmas/Yule approaches some one will find the link and we will have long forgetten this thread. HUGS! Sqrl ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/37 "2000-10-25T19:43:47Z")
**Sqrl:** Well, I have a facsimile edition of the first illustrated “A Visit from Saint Nicholas” (“The Night Before Christmas” to most of us), which dates back to 1869, I believe. The Santa in there is CERTAINLY roly and poly and rosy-cheeked and white-bearded and cuddlesome…the one major difference between him and the guy up at Macy’s Toyland is that he’s wearing a GREEN suit! I don’t dispute that Coca-Cola produced one helluva classic Santa in their ads, or even that he’s the definitive Kris Kringle. But their commercial artists were drawing on a pre-existing gift-distributing chimney-crawling fatboy image. ---
**Author:** ![WiredGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@WiredGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WiredGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/38 "2000-10-25T19:44:26Z")
I can see why you are offended. Nicely point out to him that Christianity doesn’t have a single original holiday and that every holiday they celibrate is really a pagan holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/39 "2000-10-26T00:22:05Z")
We’re working on the origin of Santa question for a mailbag article. In the meantime : [http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.htm](http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.htm) for a rebuttal of the idea of the Coca Cola / red suit story. ---
**Author:** ![barflyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@barflyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barflyer)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015/40 "2000-10-26T04:54:18Z")
I hate all relgious ceremonies, so I’d hate that part of your wedding. But I would go if invited, since I respect the concept of wedding, just a milestone of life and a shared joy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-is-paganism-a-problem-for-you/38015.md?page=3)