# So why was Ammonius Saccus banned? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438 "2006-12-24T14:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/181 "2006-12-26T04:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] You do such beautiful snide. The best moderator of GD, I suppose, would be someone who in all his posts has never revealed a position one way or the other on GD hot-button topics. But, as this would probably reduce the pool too far, and yield candidates utterly unfamiliar with GD issues, I’d say a better description would be “someone whose views on hot-button GD topics has never revealed a strong tendency towards one extreme or the other.” That should give you several strong candidates, but would clearly rule out **Tom**. Really not all that tough a call. Mods with overt biases are obviously undesirable. This isn’t rocket surgery. [/QUOTE] All the Mods here are unpaid volunteers; naturally, someone picked to moderate Great Debates will be someone who already spends a lot of time there–in fact that would be kind of a requirement. People who spend a lot of time in GD tend to be people who have clear views on at least some hot-button GD topics, since otherwise why would they be hanging around the place to begin with? Unless you think we should go with paid moderators (and just how much are you willing to pay to post here?) I don’t see that changing. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/182 "2006-12-26T04:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=MEBuckner] All the Mods here are unpaid volunteers; naturally, someone picked to moderate Great Debates will be someone who already spends a lot of time there–in fact that would be kind of a requirement. People who spend a lot of time in GD tend to be people who have clear views on at least some hot-button GD topics, since otherwise why would they be hanging around the place to begin with? Unless you think we should go with paid moderators (and just how much are you willing to pay to post here?) I don’t see that changing. [/QUOTE] It’s the typical bullshit projection that some have. If they were a moderator, they would of course use their power to repress those who disagree with them. They simply cannot understand that anyone would do anything else. It’s a rather limited understanding of what people are capable of, in my view, and demonstrates perfectly the attitude of fundies of all stripes that people are inherently bad and require strong guidance to lead them to the light. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/183 "2006-12-26T04:34:19Z")
Merry Christmas Everyone!!! ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/184 "2006-12-26T04:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] You’ve gone fucking insane. **Tom** a “virulent defender” of Christianity? Nonsense. He is entitled to his personal views of posters, as are all we moderators. He doesn’t like you, he doesn’t like **badchad** , so what? What you have singularly failed to do (to this point) is demonstrate that his personal feelings have affected his actions as a moderator. Can you demonstrate that? [/QUOTE] I think if you reviewed a few choice longish threads in which **Tom** has moderated with his heaviest hand, you might come away with the impression that maybe I’m not totally insane. Or maybe that impression would be re-inforced. I’m not prepared to say. But if you like, I will waste a little of my day tomorrow searching for those threads where I think overall **Tom** ’s modding is biased against atheists and in favor of Xians, if you’ll agree to review them in their totality. I really dont want to get into “This post was biased” or "this word was inappropriately harsh’ or “He should have told Polycarp to cut it out here” because I agree a few posts don’t prove anything. And maybe a few threads won’t either. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/185 "2006-12-26T04:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] It’s the typical bullshit projection that some have. If they were a moderator, they would of course use their power to repress those who disagree with them. They simply cannot understand that anyone would do anything else. It’s a rather limited understanding of what people are capable of, in my view, and demonstrates perfectly the attitude of fundies of all stripes that people are inherently bad and require strong guidance to lead them to the light. [/QUOTE] My own position, if you care, is the exact opposite. I would insist on disquaifying myself from any position where I held strong views; if I stayed in the position, I would bend over backwards to favor the position that I do NOT hold, as a check against possible biases on my part. I do this all the time in the classroom, btw. If a student is taking a position I disagree with strongly, I take special care to see that he’s not being persecuted by other students who agree with me. If it’s a political discussion, or an interpretion of a religious text, or a controversial issue in literature, I will always defend those students’ p.o.v.s that offend me most deeply. A while ago, I recommended this policy to **Tom,** who blustered past the point I was trying to make to him and he assured me that his modding was just perfectly fine, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/186 "2006-12-26T04:56:25Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] If it’s a political discussion, or an interpretion of a religious text, or a controversial issue in literature, I will always defend those students’ p.o.v.s that offend me most deeply. [/QUOTE] I can’t respond until I know how you mean “defend”. Do you (pedagoguically) espouse their view, or do you merely ensure that they may state their point of view? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/187 "2006-12-26T05:17:08Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] And then there was [this exchange](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7907346&postcount=591):in which **badchad** announced his pleasure, not in silencing a believer, but in causing that poster to choose to lose pleasure in participating on this board. I’m sure that you bought the rationalization he later provided, but he had a clear opportunity to say that he was happy that **Polycarp** posted less on religious topics, but, instead, announced his pleasure that **Poly** posted less, period. [/QUOTE] And seriously, he wasn’t banned or warned for this jerkish stalking? Does he have pictures of the Staff in compromising sexual postions with ManBearPig in a safe desposit box or something? I don’t get it. Anyone else would have been warned and then banned for this sort of behavior. Why does he get a free ride? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/188 "2006-12-26T05:26:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I can’t respond until I know how you mean “defend”. Do you (pedagoguically) espouse their view, or do you merely ensure that they may state their point of view? [/QUOTE] Mostly the latter. I do make devil’s advocate arguments from time to time. More than anything else, it’s clarifying their positions, making sure that their opponents are asking sensible questions, etc. I do this for all my students, but I just take special care to be sure I’m doing it for students I disagree with, and not doing it unnecessarily just because I agree with someone. It’s just common sense, to ensure that if I show bias, it’s against the position I tend to favor myself. As I’ve said here once or twice my favorite moment as a classroom teaher ever came when two fundamentalist Xian young women in a course I taught on Blake (who was an Xian whackjob from way back) thanked me for teaching the course as a true Xian would. Hoo boy, did they have the wrong vampire, bubbie. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/189 "2006-12-26T06:11:30Z")
How come I never get any of these emails attacking me for not believing in God? It’s so lonely here in unpersecuted atheismland. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/190 "2006-12-26T06:46:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **PRR** : Do you mean to suggest that Tom is laying down on the job? You mean “_lying_ down on the job.” You need to find a good “No Professor Left Behind” program. You have your doctorate in writing? You are the chair of an English department of over sixty or seventy university teachers? Irregular verbs should have been mastered by middle school at the latest. Your charade was over long ago. What was it you said about trolls interrupting honest discourse? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/191 "2006-12-26T08:33:03Z")
Did Ammonius Saccus ever pony up the $15 to be a member? If not then: > [@Rules link at the top of the page](#): > > Guests: Please remember that you are our guest here, and that we reserve the right to exclude you at our whim, for any or no reason whatsoever. Seems pretty clear to me. And even if he did become a member, > [@same](#): > > Refusal to cooperate with board moderators **or** to abide by these rules is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. (bolding mine) Looks like the mods hold all the cards. The fact that bannings require overt proof of jerkitude and also a moderator consensus is simply a show of good faith on the part of the mods. But this forum and its members are still maintained out of the goodness of their heats. Don’t like it? Tough toenails. There are plenty of free messageboard hosts that you can host your Oh woe is me, I’m too perfect for their feeble minds pity party on. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/192 "2006-12-26T08:51:27Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] How come I never get any of these emails attacking me for not believing in God? It’s so lonely here in unpersecuted atheismland. [/QUOTE] Heathen scum! You’re going _straight to Hell_! Repent! Repent, you sinner! Fly from the wrath to come! …Glad I could be of service. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/193 "2006-12-26T08:55:13Z")
sigh. Too bad Santa forgot that copy of _Previewing For Dummies_. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/194 "2006-12-26T11:10:44Z")
While I doubt that **tomndebb** and I will ever be buddies, I just don’t see a pattern of discrimination by him when modding threads involving atheists. The few times I recall him intervening in a thread I was arguing in, it was to slap down the _other_ guy. And “virulent defender” of Christianity ? Unless he’s posted some extreme stuff I’ve missed, no. Then again, maybe he’s just too sneaky for me, eh ? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/195 "2006-12-26T14:38:21Z")
I think every future GD thread about “Why don’t Americans trust or like atheists?” needs to be linked to this thread. JC, Atheist ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/196 "2006-12-26T14:57:50Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Then again, maybe he’s just too sneaky for me, eh ? [/QUOTE] No, I honestly believe that if he hasn’t actually busted your chops personally, you’d never have a reason to notice this tendency. I never even noticed he was especially pro-religion until after I had a few weird encounters with him, so it’s not too surprising he’s been able to fly under your radar. But in my (rather mild, until recently) dealings with him, I progressively found myself thinking “Hey, what the shit? **Tom** is busting my chops on an issue that people get away with every day on GD, like **Polycarp** , and that other Xian apologist what’s his name–hey, is this anything like a pattern?” and I started looking for the pattern, and I found it. He’s not nearly as accepting of minor violations of GD protocol with those who take an atheist position. He seems to delight in making atheists who take him seriously answer his catechism of legalistic points that he lets slide from Xian posters routinely. It amounts to an official hijack of atheists’ OPs, and probably because I’m such a wise-mouth, I catch a lot of this chops-busting. Maybe I’m over-sensitive. Maybe the stuff that annoys me rolls off your back, **Der Trihs.** Maybe I should let it go, and simply roll my eyes when **Tom** does it again. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/197 "2006-12-26T16:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Maybe I’m over-sensitive. Maybe the stuff that annoys me rolls off your back, **Der Trihs.** Maybe I should let it go, and simply roll my eyes when **Tom** does it again. [/QUOTE] It’s impossible for us to gauge whether or not you’re being over-sensitive unless you point us to the threads where you believe that Tom has treated you unfairly. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/198 "2006-12-26T16:20:24Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] It’s impossible for us to gauge whether or not you’re being over-sensitive unless you point us to the threads where you believe that Tom has treated you unfairly. [/QUOTE] I might send a few of the more blatant examples to some other Mods, but I sense the general defensiveness and skepticism on the boards in general would result in a lot of arguing and trainwrecks without much change of positions just now. You all seem a bit too hostile to the concept for me to try and persuade people in droves, so I deem it sufficient to state it as my opinion for now. I’m not blaming you for your defensiveness–I’d probably be the same in your position–but it seems like a lot of work (argung about the interpretation of the threads, not just searching for the threads, though that’s a little bit of a chore too) for what looks like very little reward. Maybe some other time. For now, I’m just raising the issue, and accepting your skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/199 "2006-12-26T16:27:28Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I might send a few of the more blatant examples to some other Mods, but I sense the general defensiveness and skepticism on the boards in general would result in a lot of arguing and trainwrecks without much change of positions just now. You all seem a bit too hostile to the concept for me to try and persuade people in droves, so I deem it sufficient to state it as my opinion for now. I’m not blaming you for your defensiveness–I’d probably be the same in your position–but it seems like a lot of work (argung about the interpretation of the threads, not just searching for the threads, though that’s a little bit of a chore too) for what looks like very little reward. Maybe some other time. For now, I’m just raising the issue, and accepting your skepticism. [/QUOTE] An important part of being an adult is admitting your mistakes and apologizing for them. I am sorry I said you weren’t trolling. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/200 "2006-12-26T16:39:06Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] An important part of being an adult is admitting your mistakes and apologizing for them. I am sorry I said you weren’t trolling. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] What? Intolerant of me expressing an opinion I allow will be a lot of work to support properly and which might even be mistaken? Who’da thunk it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438.md?page=11)