# So why was Ammonius Saccus banned? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438 "2006-12-24T14:15:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/141 "2006-12-25T22:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Thank you, **Miller** , for providing of your own free will an explanation of why Xians get cut more slack on the SD than holders of other belief systems. It’s because even atheists feel protective of this particular species of ignorant thought. Thank you very much. Honest, folks, I didn’t put him up to it or pay him or nothing. [/QUOTE] I’m sure that, in some part of that rancid lump of meat you call a brain, you think you’ve got some sort of legitimate point to make in this thread, and that my post somehow related to it. Well, fine. Consider it a Christmas gift. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/142 "2006-12-25T22:11:15Z")
Far be it from me to try to yank the thread back to it’s original purpose, but: [QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] But to me, and the rest of the board when they’ve got their heads screwed on just right, it’s very specific. It means “Someone whose purpose here is to provoke, with insincere but outrageous OPs or responses, who typically attempts only rarely to engage in genuine discussion, and to whom resolving issues is an undesirable end.” Or something to that effect. That’s what it means, pretty much, and that seems to be the definition that gets people banned for being trolls. [/QUOTE] Based on this and nothing else, the banning of Ammonius Saccus was justified by his “Cecil Adams is a punk ass bitch” thread. Had he a legitimate objection to a column, he could’ve started a thread in the appropriate forum. What purpose could his choice of wording serve except as a loudspeaker announcement of “My efforts to piss all of you off aren’t working, so let’s try THIS!” Frankly, I don’t see where this “persecution of atheists” meme is coming from, (any more than Aeschines’ occasional bleating of how those holding paranormal beliefs are being persecuted). I’m an atheist and I’ve never felt it, likely because I never made it my mission to piss people off. That happens often enough on its own. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/143 "2006-12-25T22:12:17Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Thank you, **Miller** , for providing of your own free will an explanation of why Xians get cut more slack on the SD than holders of other belief systems. It’s because even atheists feel protective of this particular species of ignorant thought. Thank you very much. Honest, folks, I didn’t put him up to it or pay him or nothing. [/QUOTE] That’s funny 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/144 "2006-12-25T22:13:25Z")
Are you going for suicide by Mod, **PRR**? 'Cause from where I’m sitting you’re headed for a meltdown. And when Bad Chad comes acroos as calm and reasonable compared to you, my advice is to disconnect the keyboard and lock it up somehwere for a few days. Charlie Tan, religion free since 1981. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/145 "2006-12-25T22:14:55Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Well **Miller** , if it’s like that for you then fine (It is a little hypocritical though, like Cisco said) but I have seen it explained pretty much as I described. I’m not related to any Catholics so I guess that’s why I don’t distinguish much between them and Scientologists. Bunch of superstitious people in love with their religious hierarchy. [/QUOTE] How is it hypocritical? I have direct evidence that Catholics can be kind, intelligent, and decent: my mom. I’ve got similar evidence for Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, and Pagans. If someone starts calling people of those religions names, they’re insulting people I know and care about, and I’m more likely to say something. Making the same blanket insults about Scientologists is probably no more accurate, but I don’t have any sort of personal relationship with a Scientologists, so I’m less likely to be moved to respond. People are more likely to respond to a thread in which they have a personal interest. I have no personal interest in Scientology, so I’m not likely to get involved in an internet fight over them. That’s not hypocrisy, it’s just time management. And if you think that Catholics are “in love with their religious hierarchy,” you should ask my mom about Pope Benedict some time. There’s very, very little love lost there. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/146 "2006-12-25T22:18:45Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Frankly, I don’t see where this “persecution of atheists” meme is coming from, (any more than Aeschines’ occasional bleating of how those holding paranormal beliefs are being persecuted). I’m an atheist and I’ve never felt it, likely because I never made it my mission to piss people off. [/QUOTE] It’s actually kind of funny. We’re supposed to take one guy’s word for it that he’s being horribly persecuted. More, we’re supposed to take his word for it that we’re being horribly persecuted. When asked for evidence, he evades, he points to things that have other explanations, he dodges and weaves, he misquotes others. It’s like watching a religion be born. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/147 "2006-12-25T22:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] It’s like watching a religion be born. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t that normally require the founder have, y’know, charisma or something? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/148 "2006-12-25T22:30:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Doesn’t that normally require the founder have, y’know, charisma or something? [/QUOTE] Hey, failed religions are still religions, you elitist. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/149 "2006-12-25T22:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Ruining the CIA: Well. Mormons are well educated and smart people who speak foreign languages. And they’re incredibly trustworthy. So the CIA recruited some. Then they recruited more, and the previous ones went up the hierarchy, and recruited more, and so on. The CIA is, like the Boy Scouts, pretty full of mormons these days. (As is the FBI.) [/quote] I’d honestly be stunned to discover that the majority of the CIA, the BSA, and the FBI are LDS. > [@](#): > > This is only a problem insofar as it leads to a monoculture, and that monoculture is pretty much what’s screwing a few pooches in intelligence gathering. Well, maybe the monoculture is inherent in the organization. After all, there are a number of subcultures floating around and some other groups seem to have quite a few people in the group following the group’s subculture. > [@](#): > > This is not a new thing. And it should be a pretty well known thing… I can’t find a good cite that’s not from some bullshit conspiracy site, but I’ve read about it in the Times a few times over the years. I’ll wait for a cite, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/150 "2006-12-25T22:41:01Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] We disagree on the meaning of “troll,” then. To you, as to **Tom** , it’s close to meaningless: it’s basically “someone who really pisses me off.” [/QUOTE] Assumption on your part. **tom** has stated in this very threat that his definition of “troll” is pretty much the same as everyone else’s: someone who stirs shit by spreading false info. Or, in **tom** ’s own words: “Since **badchad** has made it a point to sinlge me out for his special attentions, I have not felt it appropriate to use my staff position to respond to him. In exactly one thread (where he attempted to rally the TM to abuse me, using, as I pointed out in that thread, false claims), I (as a poster) pointed out to him the reasons that I felt he was, in fact, behaving as a troll.” > [@](#): > > “Trollishness” describes one’s purpose: once one is IDed as a troll, there’s really no justification for NOT banning him or her. Just because one of us comes off as a troll on occasion doesn’t mean they _are_ a troll. That’s why TPTB issue warnings and save the summary bannings for socks. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/151 "2006-12-25T23:04:12Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] That’s why TPTB issue warnings and save the summary bannings for socks. [/QUOTE] And atheists. Oops, was that my out loud voice? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/152 "2006-12-25T23:23:28Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] Assumption on your part. **tom** has stated in this very threat that his definition of “troll” is pretty much the same as everyone else’s: someone who stirs shit by spreading false info. Or, in **tom** ’s own words: "Since **badchad** has made it a point to sinlge me out for his special attentions, I have not felt it appropriate to use my staff position to respond to him. In exactly one thread (where he attempted to rally the TM to abuse me, using, as I pointed out in that thread, false claims), I (as a poster) pointed out to him the reasons that I felt he was, in fact, behaving as a troll."Just because one of us comes off as a troll on occasion doesn’t mean they _are_ a troll. That’s why TPTB issue warnings and save the summary bannings for socks. [/QUOTE] You know, if you have to cite **Tom** , whom I’m arguing doesn’t know a troll from a boogeyman from a hole in his ass, then that’s pretty much admitting that you define a troll as “someone I don’t care for.” **Frank,** you’re a funny guy. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/153 "2006-12-26T00:34:20Z")
> [@](#): > > **PRR** : The only important distinction I would draw between my laziness and that of Xian posters is that it’s not really important that you take my word for anything. Many of us really can’t anymore, so that is just as well. Did it ever occur to you that for many Christians, the same is true in reverse? It’s not really important that you take our word for anything. > [@](#): > > **PRR** : I’m simply stating how I feel, admitting that I’m too lazy (or too busy) to support my contention with hard evidence just now, and that it doesn’t really matter whether you believe me or not, I’m just expressing a very subjective perception that may or may not be true. I’m not sure which contention you are speaking about. If it is a simple matter of personal belief, you aren’t responsible to any of us for explaining those. If you have made accusations about the character of another Doper based on what you describe as “a very subjective perception that may or may not be true,” and you have done so at a time when you are too busy or too lazy to substantiate your claim, that is, in my opinion, jerkish behavior. > [@](#): > > **PRR** : You will wait a long, long time before reading such a disclaimer from a Xian p.o.v. What they assure you of, based on their own subjective feelings, is totally TRUE and if you can’t agree with that, they have nothing but piteous contempt for you. From [one of those recent GD threads:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7880417&postcount=345) > [@](#): > > **Zoe** : I’ve always known and confessed that my belief system may be flawed. St. Paul had the same problems, so I’m not to hard on myself about it. Besides, I don’t think we always pick and choose what we believe. We find it within yourselves. For the most part at the SD, I see atheists who have no problems with the moderate Christians who are here and moderate/liberal Christians who have no problems with the atheists who are mutually respectful. I would like not to be blamed for what other people do under the name of Christianity. You are not responsible for what every American does or every male does or every New Yorker does or every Doper. You are not like everyone else in those groups. Neither are all Christians alike. I hope you lose your bet and aren’t banned by New Year’s. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/154 "2006-12-26T00:40:40Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] You know, if you have to cite **Tom** , whom I’m arguing doesn’t know a troll from a boogeyman from a hole in his ass, then that’s pretty much admitting that you define a troll as “someone I don’t care for.” [/QUOTE] And I’m arguing that you are reading something into **tom** ’s posts that aren’t there, thus the reason for citing **tom**. How 'bout I cite the [staff report](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtroll.html)? > [@](#): > > (bolding mine) > To be fair, not all trolls are slimeballs. On some message boards, veteran posters with a mischievous bent occasionally go “newbie trolling.” On the Usenet newsgroup alt.folklore.urban, as of a few years ago anyway, it was fairly common for pranksters to post known urban legends as fact in hopes of getting novice users to go, “No, REALLY?” Gotcha, sucker. > > **The main point about trolls is that they intentionally mislead others.** As the Free Online Dictionary of Computing ([http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.c](http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.c) gi?troll) notes, “ **Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key.** A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.” ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/155 "2006-12-26T00:50:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] And I’m arguing that you are reading something into **tom** ’s posts that aren’t there, thus the reason for citing **tom**. How 'bout I cite the [staff report](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtroll.html)? [/QUOTE] How 'bout you cite your own ass, cuz that’s what you’re talking out of? What the hell that cite has to do with anything, I’ll never know. If a troll is really a troll, he’s eligible to be banned on that basis alone. **Badchad** isn’t a troll, \*\*Tom \*\* has accused him of being a troll, he’s been unable to persuade his fellow Mods of his contention, **badchad** ’s still un-banned, Q.E. Fucking D., \*\*Tom \*\* lacks a clue as to what does and does not constitute a troll. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/156 "2006-12-26T01:16:32Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] **Badchad** isn’t a troll, \*\*Tom \*\* has accused him of being a troll, he’s been unable to persuade his fellow Mods of his contention, **badchad** ’s still un-banned, Q.E. Fucking D., \*\*Tom \*\* lacks a clue as to what does and does not constitute a troll. [/QUOTE] And you still have no basis to suggest that **tom** has been “trying to pursuade his fellow Mods of his contention.” Give it a rest. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/157 "2006-12-26T01:18:17Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] And you still have no basis to suggest that **tom** has been “trying to pursuade his fellow Mods of his contention.” [/QUOTE] You kidding? He has the Holy Scripture of his own posts! ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/158 "2006-12-26T01:35:31Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] And you still have no basis to suggest that **tom** has been “trying to pursuade his fellow Mods of his contention.” Give it a rest. [/QUOTE] You don’t mean to suggest, in the alternative, that **Tom** has actually identified an active and pernicious troll operating freely on the SD, and yet has kept this information to himself despite his best beliefs, do you, **Sam**? Not even checked to see if anyone agrees with his positive and certain identification of this troll? Don’t we all want trolls banned? They’re worthless disruptors of honest discourse, and I certainly hope all Mods are doing their level best to suss them out, and when they’re certain they’ve found one, to ban him ASAP. Do you mean to suggest that **Tom** is laying down on the job? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/159 "2006-12-26T01:43:01Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] > [@](#): > > What the hell that cite has to do with anything Read on, MacDuff. **Badchad** isn’t a troll [/QUOTE] Maybe not but **chad** does have a history of inciting emotional reactions–from **Polycarp** , in particular–and intentionally misleading others while attempting to incide an anti- **tom** pileon. Which gets us back to that staff report. “Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key.” “The main point about trolls is that they intentionally mislead others.” I submit you are talking out _your_ ass. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438/160 "2006-12-26T01:48:34Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] You don’t mean to suggest, in the alternative, that **Tom** has actually identified an active and pernicious troll operating freely on the SD, and yet has kept this information to himself despite his best beliefs, do you, **Sam**? Not even checked to see if anyone agrees with his positive and certain identification of this troll? Don’t we all want trolls banned? They’re worthless disruptors of honest discourse, and I certainly hope all Mods are doing their level best to suss them out, and when they’re certain they’ve found one, to ban him ASAP. Do you mean to suggest that **Tom** is laying down on the job? [/QUOTE] Actually, I meant to suggest that you’re making things up as you go along, as it suits your pre-conceived ideas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-was-ammonius-saccus-banned/385438.md?page=9)