# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/321 "2012-12-01T21:51:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In that you don’t seem to be recognizing the possibility that some might choose to stay, as residents of the nation of Palestine. And that you’re not addressing the issue of their squatting, not having legal title except that bestowed by the occupying power. That’s how. Dude, have you ever visited there or talked to anyone there. No, I doubt any would want to be Palestinian citizens and I’ve never met any Palestinians who view them as anything other than alien invaders. Imams at West Bank Mosques regularly preach that on judgement day the stones themselves will jump up and shout out, “come here good Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me! Come kill him!” Also, the moderate head of the PA insists the Holocaust is a hoax and has passed laws prohibitting “Jews” from purchasing lands. Why would any self-respecting Jew voluntarily live in a state like that? Name one you know who would. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/322 "2012-12-01T22:49:44Z")
I said only that they have the option, like expats anywhere, not that it’s an attractive one. But you bring up a good point: Given that they’ve chosen to move to a country that is not only foreign but hostile (regardless of how the hostility arose), why do \*you \*think they made that choice? **Alessan** , I rarely take part in hypotheticals, but since you addressed me directly, then it’s a similar question for you: They chose to be there. They knew the possible consequences. As squatters, they have no right to be there. So why should anyone, including the country they chose to leave, feel a responsibility to go to war on their behalf? If there’s a problem with attitudes and judgments, as there is, then that’s what has to be fixed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/323 "2012-12-01T23:00:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You’re also ignoring the fact is that the Israeli government is not going to let them become part of a Palestinian state, and the fact that the majority of the Israeli public agrees with this. You’re throwing this word “fact” around pretty loosely. The description of a simple preference as an immutable fact for all time is not conducive to peacemaking, exactly the opposite. > [@](#): > > However, unlike the “solutions” you’ve proposed, it’s actually workable, which is the only thing that matters. Calling something you dislike “unworkable” reflects the same irresponsibility as calling something you do like a “fact”, isn’t it? Peacemaking is hard. It requires sacrifices on both sides. Begin knew that, so have many other Israeli leaders, but they wouldn’t be allowed to act on that knowledge and responsibility today, would they? So why do there no longer seem to be adults in Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/324 "2012-12-01T23:12:30Z")
Do you actually think that the State of Israel will just sit by and watch while Jewish children are getting killed? Wow. You actually do. You know what - I’m done here. Just accept that we’re a completely alien culture, that our values, priorities and beliefs are utterly different from yours, okay? Or don’t accept it, for all I care. Just don’t start to preach that your culture of “justice” devoid of loyalty, responsibility and solidarity is somehow superior to ours. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/325 "2012-12-01T23:35:23Z")
Well, it’s obviously a disaster, because John Bolton has been all over Fox News saying so. He’s the kind of man that red-blooded Americans would like to have for Secretary of State, unlike that despicable Susan Rice, who gets involved in politics, which no SoS candidate should ever do. But I’m having a hard time understanding his arguments. He says that this vote will give the PA access to the International Criminal Court and the like, where they can bring cases against Israel. I just don’t see why giving the Palestinians alternatives to shooting rockets into Israel is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/326 "2012-12-02T00:47:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Israel will never stop protecting its citizens. That’s what I’m trying to say. It may force some of them back to Israel, but it won’t abandon them. That isn’t jingoism, and I’m not trying to convince you. I’m just stating facts. > > Leaving Jews to die would be a betrayal of everything Israel stands for. If we do that, then we have no right to call ourselves a country. Oh, please! Jews nor Israel are on the verge of being “left to die”. I don’t know if it’s Israeli nationalism or collective narcissism but I’m convinced that we’ll never be able to talk about Middle East peace without this kind of hyperbole poisoning the well. To imply that Israel must occupy another country in order to protect itself is ridiculous and doesn’t pass the sniff test: Clearly, over 130 countries around the ENTIRE PLANET EARTH agree with this sentiment. To go on further, all of the countries including the United States BELIEVE ISRAEL SHOULD STOP BUILDING SETTLEMENTS! How hard is this to stop doing? Just. Stop. Building. Settlements. Now, unless the entire globe including the United States is anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli, it’s time to look in the mirror. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/327 "2012-12-02T01:24:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do you actually think that the State of Israel will just sit by and watch while Jewish children are getting killed? > > Wow. You actually do. Nobody has said that, actually; you’re imagining things that just aren’t there. What is unquestionably true is that Israel is going to, at some point, have to either do something about the “settlers,” or just be honest about it and conquer the West Bank and drive its people away or kill them all. Maintaining the status quo will result in the status quo, which means Israel will not be able to live in peace, which means Israeli children will die. So in fact, as it stands, Israel is embarking on a course of action that will inevitably mean more of its children die. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/328 "2012-12-02T01:53:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do you actually think that the State of Israel will just sit by and watch while Jewish children are getting killed? > > Wow. You actually do. With deep regret, I retract my earlier observation that you’re better than this. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/329 "2012-12-02T01:57:52Z")
Has anyone linked to this yet? [Roger Waters (Pink Floyd bassist) addressing the UN General Assembly](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DrSPFYXUfQ). It’s 24 mins. long, but worth the time, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/330 "2012-12-02T02:27:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nobody has said that, actually; you’re imagining things that just aren’t there. Elvis did say of the settlers, who would hypothetically be left in the Palestinian state and the victims of violence by the Palestinians, "They chose to be there. They knew the possible consequences. As squatters, they have no right to be there. So why should anyone, including the country they chose to leave, feel a responsibility to go to war on their behalf? " So it seems like he was sort of suggesting that the Israeli government would leave them to die. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/331 "2012-12-02T02:43:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Elvis did say of the settlers, who would hypothetically be left in the Palestinian state and the victims of violence by the Palestinians, "They chose to be there. They knew the possible consequences. As squatters, they have no right to be there. So why should anyone, including the country they chose to leave, feel a responsibility to go to war on their behalf? " > > So it seems like he was sort of suggesting that the Israeli government would leave them to die. It’s a valid question, but does not necessarily mean Israel would or should allow the situation to reach that point. Realistically, what Israel needs to do is negotiate some land concessions and forcibly remove a lot of “settlers” from their ill-gotten gains. That’s just as much a “refusal to go to war on their behalf,” is it not? You could just as easily have Israel make, as part of a peace agreement, a demand that Palestine protect Jewish citizens. Or something. What’s for sure is that the current situation promises no peace, and Israel has to accept, at some point, the West Bank being its own country, just as the Palestinians and Arab nations will have to accept Israel’s right to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/332 "2012-12-02T02:47:58Z")
People do seem to be operating on the possibility that the Jewish settlers could remain in the occupied territories if they ever become independent. This really is a non-starter. The Palestinians have always been extremely clear that they aren’t welcome and would have to leave. We are after all talking about a government which issues the death penalty for anyone who sells land to a Jews and who’ve readily insisted that all Jews are justifiable targets. If there is to be an independent Palestinian state on the West Bank(which would almost certainly not be viable) it would require the settlers be forcibly evacuated or there have to be some rather loathe some land swaps with Israel. Anyone who argues otherwise is simply denying reality. The Palestinians aren’t the Lithuanians and Israelis(with obvious exceptions) aren’t Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/333 "2012-12-02T02:55:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s a valid question, but does not necessarily mean Israel would or should allow the situation to reach that point. > > Realistically, what Israel needs to do is negotiate some land concessions and forcibly remove a lot of “settlers” from their ill-gotten gains. That’s just as much a “refusal to go to war on their behalf,” is it not? You could just as easily have Israel make, as part of a peace agreement, a demand that Palestine protect Jewish citizens. Or something. > > What’s for sure is that the current situation promises no peace, and Israel has to accept, at some point, the West Bank being its own country, just as the Palestinians and Arab nations will have to accept Israel’s right to exist. After the fiasco regarding the Tomb of Joseph what Jew would possibly take any Palestians promises to protect the Jewish settlers at face value? Beyond that, even if Abbas, the money man behind Munich with rather odd views regarding the Holocaust wanted to protect them, how could he? That’s a serious question BTW? Which of the various Palestinian security forces would actually risk being murdered as collaborators by protecting Jews? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/334 "2012-12-02T04:16:02Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Oh, please! Jews nor Israel are on the verge of being “left to die”. To imply that Israel must occupy another country in order to protect itself is ridiculous and doesn’t pass the sniff test: Clearly, over 130 countries around the ENTIRE PLANET EARTH agree with this sentiment. ] proud Godwin alert: In recent history, 130 countries around the entire planet didnt much care about 6 million jews being "left to die ". Israelis deeply, deeply know what happens when you are helplessly dependent on the good will of others. Israel doesn’t particlulary want to occupy its neighboring country.But it does want to prevent its neighboring country from occupying Israel. Which is exactly what the Palestinians are swearing they will do as soon as they get the chance. Millions of good, intelligent, well-meaning Israelis were happy to stop occupying Gaza. They made the assumption was that there were an equal number of good, intelligent , well-meaning Gazans who would want to live in peace. They were wrong. As Golda Meir said 2 generations ago: there will be peace when the Arabs decide that they love their own children more than they hate ours. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/335 "2012-12-02T05:42:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s a valid question, but does not necessarily mean Israel would or should allow the situation to reach that point. > > Realistically, what Israel needs to do is negotiate some land concessions and forcibly remove a lot of “settlers” from their ill-gotten gains. That’s just as much a “refusal to go to war on their behalf,” is it not? Not really, no. You won’t like hearing this, but IMHO, the settlers themselves are largely blameless here. It’s Israel’s fault as a whole. The Israeli government, after all, allowed them - no, encouraged them - to live there. The Israeli government promised to protect them. It can’t just turn around and say “Sorry, changed our minds. Fuck y’all.” It doesn’t work that way. So by Israeli logic, removing someone by force to Israel is one way to continue to provide them with protection. After all, they’re being taken somewhere where they’ll be safe. The State of Israel has made a non-revocable commitment to protect them, and if they’re back in Israel, it will be able to do so. That’s why I believe it will never reach the point that Israeli citizens will be living inside a Palestinian state. The Israeli government will never expose itself to that kind of liability. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/336 "2012-12-02T14:37:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The settlers’ attitude is part of the problem. I just don’t think it’s going to change. > > You’re also ignoring the fact is that the Israeli government is not going to let them become part of a Palestinian state, and the fact that the majority of the Israeli public agrees with this. You might say that that too is an attitude problem. I disagree: I think it’s a side effect of what makes us the great nation we are (and no, I’m not being ironic here). I don’t think that’s going to change, either, nor do I want it to. > > Here’s what I think might happen - and what I basically want to happen. The vast majority of the settlements, those near the Green line on the Israeli side of the fence, will be annexed to Israel. The “deep” ones will be evacuated by Israel - with force, but without violence. There might be some exchange of territory in return for the land annexed. It’ll be hard, it’ll require a lot of goodwill on both sides, and it’ll need the support of the Israeli public, but I think it can be done. > > I’m sure that you find my solution horribly unjust. However, unlike the “solutions” you’ve proposed, it’s actually workable, which is the only thing that matters. QFT ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/337 "2012-12-02T15:38:04Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > ] > As Golda Meir said 2 generations ago: there will be peace when the Arabs decide that they love their own children more than they hate ours. I agree 100%. And as long as the Arabs have such a mentality, handing them appeasements will not help the situation. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/338 "2012-12-02T16:15:50Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Not really, no. You won’t like hearing this, but IMHO, the settlers themselves are largely blameless here. It’s Israel’s fault as a whole. The Israeli government, after all, allowed them - no, encouraged them - to live there. The Israeli government promised to protect them. It can’t just turn around and say “Sorry, changed our minds. Fuck y’all.” It doesn’t work that way. Israel’s dragged people from their settlements before, though, so they’re willing to do that, at least. They’ll have to, or this will never end. Or, again, they could just invade the West Bank and drive the Palestinians into Jordan. It’s gonna be one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/339 "2012-12-02T16:31:58Z")
How is it that someone who by his own admission wants to “go into a diplomatic and legal war against Israel” is considered to be someone who is “quite honestly trying to achieve peace”? How is it that someone who by his own admission wants to “pave the way . . . to pursue claims against Israel at the United Nations, human rights treaty bodies and the International Court of Justice” considered to be someone who is “quite honestly trying to achieve peace”? How is it that someone who refuses to sit down at the negotiating table with Israel without preconditions considered to be someone who is “quite honestly trying to achieve peace”? Stop confusing your wishes with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/340 "2012-12-02T16:42:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Israel’s dragged people from their settlements before, though, so they’re willing to do that, at least. They’ll have to, or this will never end. > . They could. The thing is, it took a huge amount of effort to extract the 10,000 or so in the Gaza Strip, and a huge amount of domestic social upheaval here in Israel (six years later, and the political system still hasn’t recovered). Doing the same with the 350,000 in the West Bank is logistically impossible. However, getting just the 50,000 or so in the “deep” settlements out could work, maybe. That’s why the most doable proposal on the table - the one I outlined above - involves annexing the large “blocks”, and evacuating the rest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=18)