# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/341 "2012-12-02T16:45:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The Israeli government, after all, allowed them - no, encouraged them - to live there. The Israeli government promised to protect them. It can’t just turn around and say “Sorry, changed our minds. Fuck y’all.” It doesn’t work that way. More excuse-making. > [@](#): > > So by Israeli logic, removing someone by force to Israel is one way to continue to provide them with protection. Another approach might be to say “You’re individuals, actual humans with actual free will. Be aware that no expats in any foreign country have a right to expect anybody to to go war over them, and you don’t either. Also be aware that your legal right to continue to live there, under the foreign country’s laws or world standards, is dubious and probably unenforceable. So make your own decision what to do.” How’s that? > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So it seems like he was sort of suggesting that the Israeli government would leave them to die. A-fucking-mazing. :rolleyes: [quote=brazil84\And as long as the Arabs have such a mentality, handing them appeasements will not help the situation.[/quote] As long as Israel’s mindset is that its neighbors are something “other”, something less than fully human as themselves, somebody who needs to be kept down, somebody with less rights as humans and as people with a homeland as themselves, then no, peace will not be possible. It is one of the deep tragedies of the human condition that Israel has chosen to simply reverse roles rather than \*learn \*from its people’s history. As long as Israel refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist, as long as it gives no reason for anyone else to think it understands any language other than force, then it has no claim on any support from the world. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/342 "2012-12-02T17:04:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Israel’s dragged people from their settlements before, though, so they’re willing to do that, at least. They’ll have to, or this will never end. > > Or, again, they could just invade the West Bank and drive the Palestinians into Jordan. It’s gonna be one or the other. You forget the most familiar option of carrying on the **status quo** sans resolution. Eventually (for whatever reason) the _status quo_ will be utterly and completely untenable to all sides, but until that day comes it will always be the default option. Here’s [an interesting talk](http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/13161) with [Daniel Kurtzer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_C._Kurtzer) American Ambassador to Egypt (1997-2001) and Israel (2001-2005). ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/343 "2012-12-02T17:29:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Another approach might be to say “You’re individuals, actual humans with actual free will. Be aware that no expats in any foreign country have a right to expect anybody to to go war over them, and you don’t either. Also be aware that your legal right to continue to live there, under the foreign country’s laws or world standards, is dubious and probably unenforceable. So make your own decision what to do.” How’s that? You know, as an Israeli who is all for a two-state solution, and who regrets the establishment of the settlements, I used to think quite like you. And then I grew up, and realized that you have to live with the “what is”, and not with “what you’d like it to be”. Because, like **Alessan** said, many of the settlers will choose not to be evacuated, and to prepare for war instead. And the Israeli public simply will not just stand by as Israelis (even ones they fundamentally disagree with) are lynched. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/344 "2012-12-02T17:35:37Z")
Then any war they choose to start would be on their own heads, wouldn’t it? It’s quite remarkable to think of an entire nation that does not believe in allowing individuals to make their own choices and to accept the known consequences of those choices. It’s even more remarkable to think of an entire nation that would feel an obligation to go kill other people to protect those said individuals from those consequences. And it’s incredibly remarkable to think anyone would consider that a responsible approach. “What is”, as you call it, is by no means “what has to be”. As I have asked before, why do there no longer seem to be adults in Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/345 "2012-12-02T20:09:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then any war they choose to start would be on their own heads, wouldn’t it? This is a rather odd statement. Up till now, I’ve assumed you were firm opponent of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, but this particular statement seems to think you believe that the Palestinians who complain about the occupation are whiny bitches who should shut up and accept what they brought on themselves and that Israelis should feel no shame in the occupation. Would you mind explaining because based on the logic of the above statement, that is how you should feel, but I doubt that’s how you feel? Thanks in advance. > [@](#): > > “What is”, as you call it, is by no means “what has to be”. As I have asked before, why do there no longer seem to be adults in Israel? That of course is as stupid, ignorant, and racist as Abba Eban’s silly argument that “the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/346 "2012-12-02T20:15:55Z")
Anyway back to the OP. No, the sky won’t fall. Meaningless gestures don’t really mean much by definition. Now, we’re the UN to decide to recognize Northern Cyprus or the Armenian portion of AK as independent nations, then we’d see some real fireworks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/347 "2012-12-02T20:30:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If there is to be an independent Palestinian state on the West Bank(which would almost certainly not be viable) . . . Why not viable? Of course we’re assuming Palestine controls its own river-border with Jordan, so it has an outlet for foreign commerce even without Gaza – which, again, we must assume controls its own border with Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/348 "2012-12-02T20:31:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then any war they choose to start would be on their own heads, wouldn’t it? In much the same way that someone who lives in a bad neighborhood and gets mugged brought it on himself. You should bear in mind that, while you and I may not like it, it was Israel’s elected government that encouraged people to settle there. And these people and their children see the place as their homes, no less than the Palestinians do. Personally, I exclude from that the ultra-extremists who chose to settle in the depth of the WB. > [@](#): > > It’s quite remarkable to think of an entire nation that does not believe in allowing individuals to make their own choices and to accept the known consequences of those choices. It’s even more remarkable to think of an entire nation that would feel an obligation to go kill other people to protect those said individuals from those consequences. And it’s incredibly remarkable to think anyone would consider that a responsible approach. I wonder. It seems to me almost everyone except the existence of the large Arab minority in Israel (many of whom consider themselves to be Palestinians) – and yet do not question the demand of the Palestinians for a _Judenrein_ Palestine. That is, not two states for two peoples, but rather one “full” state for one people (two, if you count Hamas’s Gaza), and another shared one for both. Why is that? Why won’t you accept a settlers’ option of staying as citizens in Palestine? > [@](#): > > “What is”, as you call it, is by no means “what has to be”. True. But as long as I don’t see any reasonable path from “what is” to “what I’d like”, I will assume that “what is” is “what will be”. > [@](#): > > As I have asked before, why do there no longer seem to be adults in Israel? I’m not going to dignify that with an answer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/349 "2012-12-02T21:11:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They could. The thing is, it took a huge amount of effort to extract the 10,000 or so in the Gaza Strip, and a huge amount of domestic social upheaval here in Israel (six years later, and the political system still hasn’t recovered). Doing the same with the 350,000 in the West Bank is logistically impossible. However, getting just the 50,000 or so in the “deep” settlements out could work, maybe. That’s why the most doable proposal on the table - the one I outlined above - involves annexing the large “blocks”, and evacuating the rest. Are you thinking of annexing everything between the Green Line and the Wall, and letting go of the rest? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/350 "2012-12-02T21:13:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As I have asked before, why do there no longer seem to be adults in Israel? You hadn’t heard? It was a lot like _Children of the Corn_ . . . ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/351 "2012-12-03T05:51:26Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > In much the same way that someone who lives in a bad neighborhood and gets mugged brought it on himself. . . . A mugger would never successfully use that as a defense in a trial. “The victim brought it on himself; I bear no guilt in the matter.” ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/352 "2012-12-03T07:05:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A mugger would never successfully use that as a defense in a trial. “The victim brought it on himself; I bear no guilt in the matter.” That’s what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/353 "2012-12-03T07:57:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Are you thinking of annexing everything between the Green Line and the Wall, and letting go of the rest? Pretty much, yes. The Fence (it’s only a wall for about 5% of its length, mainly as a way of stopping sniper fire on Israeli highways) may be arbitrary, but then again, so was the Green Line. And from what I’ve seen in person, Israelis already treat it as a _de facto_ border. I was in the Territories for a few weeks last month as part of my reserve duty, and everyone there already referred to the land west of the fence as “Israel”, as in, “Can anyone give me a ride back to Israel?”. That may seem obvious to you, but it’s a huge change from only 10 years ago, when only the most dedicated leftists would refer to the Territories as a foreign country. Borders make their own reality. You draw a line on a map, and sooner or later, you’ll stop thinking of the other side as yours. That’s one reason why I think the Fence is the best thing to happen to the peace process in years - it’s done far more than anything else to change Israeli perceptions about the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/354 "2012-12-03T13:23:30Z")
Well, Abbas has declared Jerusalem to be the capitol of Palestine. So I guess the stage is set for more years of war and death. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/355 "2012-12-03T14:03:06Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Well, Abbas has declared Jerusalem to be the capitol of Palestine. Note that the cheering Jews in [this picture](http://commentisfreewatch.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/israel-at-60-the-birth-of-005.jpg) were NOT going to get Jerusalem under the plan they were so ecstatic about. It’s also worth noting that when it was under Arab control, Jerusalem was never the capital of anything. It was not even a provincial capital. What changed to make Jerusalem suddenly so important to the Arabs? > [@](#): > > So I guess the stage is set for more years of war and death. There will be peace once the Arabs give up their dream of putting an end to Jewish Israel. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/356 "2012-12-03T14:43:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you feel it would have been proper for Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, when they gained their independence from the Soviet Union, to expel the ethnic Russians living there who’d been illegally settled by Stalin? > > Similarly, if the Tibetans are ever lucky enough to gain independence, should they be allowed to expel the Han Chinese “settlers” living there. I’m quite with you on that. However, the Latvians (and I suspect the other Baltic states) dealt with that with a “non-Citizen” status that gave them the right to settle and little else. Perhaps those in illegal settlements could end up with that. Or they could even offer them citizenship. Or residency permits. The best solution would be for Israel to offer them incentives to move back there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/357 "2012-12-03T15:32:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You hadn’t heard? It was a lot like _Children of the Corn_ . . . > [@amanset](#): > > The best solution would be for Israel to offer them incentives to move back there. Agreed. One of the few things both sides will agree on is that having several hundred thousand Jewish settlers in a Palestinian state is a non-starter. Also, I suspect far more of the settlers would be willing to leave then is commonly assumed. Allessan would know better, but at least in the 90s, the religious Gush Emunim(sp) types were a minority and settlers were more likely to be people attracted by cheap housing in what they saw as natural suburbs of Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/358 "2012-12-03T21:36:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > How is it that someone who by his own admission wants to “go into a diplomatic and legal war against Israel” is considered to be someone who is “quite honestly trying to achieve peace”? > > How is it that someone who by his own admission wants to “pave the way . . . to pursue claims against Israel at the United Nations, human rights treaty bodies and the International Court of Justice” considered to be someone who is “quite honestly trying to achieve peace”? > > How is it that someone who refuses to sit down at the negotiating table with Israel without preconditions considered to be someone who is “quite honestly trying to achieve peace”? > > Stop confusing your wishes with reality. What in there isn’t peaceful? If I sue my neighbour over the shed he built on our property lie, that’s a peaceful solution. It may to be friendly, but it’s peaceful. Wouldn’t you prefer that to me pulling a gun? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/359 "2012-12-03T21:48:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What in there isn’t peaceful? None of it is peaceful. There is a difference between peace and non-violence. I will concede the possibility that Abbas wants to destroy Jewish Israel non-violently, i.e. by pressuring Israel to make more and more concessions until it is majority Arab. Once Israel is majority Arab, it’s over. > [@](#): > > If I sue my neighbour over the shed he built on our property lie, that’s a peaceful solution. It may to be friendly, but it’s peaceful. Wouldn’t you prefer that to me pulling a gun? No it’s not peaceful. (And note that if you obtain a judgment that the shed is encroaching on your property, it will be enforced, if necessary, with violent force.) Similarly, if Abbas succeeds in having warrants issued for the arrest of IDF officers on phony war crimes charges, it’s not peaceful. It may be non-violent (at least superficially) but it’s not peaceful. By the way, you never gave me the quote cite and link I asked for. Do you concede that cannot substantiate your claim about Abbas supporting Israel as a Jewish state? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/360 "2012-12-03T22:17:05Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > None of it is peaceful. There is a difference between peace and non-violence. No surprise there. According to you, peaceful is if the Palestinians just laid down and offered for Israel to take anything they want in exchange for the promise, sometime, in the future, of having a plot of land that resembled a state based on Israel’s conditions. :rolleyes: Too bad for you the world doesn’t work like that. Abbas fought for an negotiated with the member countries of the UN to get that deal done. It was as peaceful a solution as there can be and it came about through negotiation. While this isn’t the goal, its one step in getting a state and I am impressed that the Palestinians could do it so peacefully [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=19)