# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/421 "2012-12-05T04:33:25Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > No I don’t. So your plan is to simply reject all evidence that contradicts your position; I guess that settles that. It is simply a matter of common knowledge and common sense that Hamas was always a greater force in Gaza. It was founded there. It grew there. Its leadership has always been (largely) based there. It won an election there. You can find the history of Hamas in 500 places on the internet and every one will tell you the same basic facts. If you’re going to reject things like “Hamas was founded in Gaza and has always been centred there” or “Hamas won the election in Gaza” or “Hamas has always operated primarily out of Gaza” then what evidence will convince you? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/422 "2012-12-05T05:30:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Bedouin wouldn’t like that and the Israelis like recruiting the Bedouin for the IDF. > > They’ve already had enough problems with the Bedouin getting pissed off when some their herding ground gets taken so they can set up training grounds on it. > > Besides, the Bedouin are Israeli citizens and that does count for something. Who’s problem is that in your ‘expat’ opinion? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/423 "2012-12-05T05:48:45Z")
[**Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory Advisory Opinion The Court finds that the construction by Israel of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and its associated régime are contrary to international law; it states the legal consequences arising from that illegality**](http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca) No issue left untreated on border issues. Right of return also made clear by Human Right organizations For instance, [**Amnesty International**](http://www.amnesty.org.il/?CategoryID=153) The whole world is anti-Semite :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/424 "2012-12-05T06:00:21Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > _I’m warning you! If you say “Hasbara” once more…_ 😃 Meh – a bit of tongue-in-cheek re-quoting never hurt anyone. Besides, truth _does_ hurts in many a case. As with Hasbara’s prop prog 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/425 "2012-12-05T06:08:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Who’s problem is that in your ‘expat’ opinion? Sigh… I really hope you’re not trying to insult me, particularly with the reference to my “expat opinion”. Anyway, I’m not sure why you’re upset with my answer. I may have misunderstood the question. If so, perhaps if you rephrased it, I can better answer it. He asked why they couldn’t build the settlements in the Negev and I mentioned the fact that doing so would piss off the Bedouin. I’m certainly not defending the building of the settlements which are flagrant violations of international law. Additionally, of course, the settlements are often meant to be, effectively suburbs for Jerusalem and suburbs of Jerusalem made more sense there than in the Negev. As I mentioned previously, I know lots of people have this impression that most of the settlers are these hard-core religious fanatics from Brooklyn, but the truth is most of them are more likely to be middle-class Israelis seeking cheap housing. Now, all that being said, there’s also no question that part of the reason various Israeli governments, particularly Likud ones were loading up the West Bank with settlers was tactical. About a year or two after Shamir was put out to pasture by the Israelis for pissing off George H.W. Bush he was interviewed and asked whether or not he regretted voting to reject the peace plan with Egypt from 1979. Shamir said no, he didn’t regret it and that had it been up to him, “We’d have put a million Jews in the West Bank by now and there’d be no talk of giving it back.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/426 "2012-12-05T10:01:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So your plan is to simply reject all evidence that contradicts your position; Not at all – you asked me a question and I answered it. Israel pulled out of Gaza and shortly thereafter Hamas took over. Without knowing anything more, the reasonable inference is that the pullout was the efficient cause of the Hamas takeover. > [@](#): > > It is simply a matter of common knowledge and common sense that Hamas was always a greater force in Gaza. Please show me some cites showing that in the time leading up to the Gaza pullout, Hamas and militancy were significantly more intense in Gaza. i.e. I am asking you to supply actual evidence to support your position. > [@](#): > > what evidence will convince you? Actual sources like newspaper articles from reputable sources which were written in the months before the Gaza pullout. Anonymous people on the internet asserting after the fact that something was “common knowledge” will not convince me. Stuff which shows that in the time period leading up the Gaza pullout, Israel could reasonably have anticipated that a Gaza pullout was more likely to result in a militant takeover than a West Bank pullout. Do you understand the difference? Also, can I take it you concede you are unable to substantiate your claim that Abbas supports Israel as a Jewish state? I would like an answer to this question so that I can understand your position. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/427 "2012-12-05T14:54:45Z")
No insult meant. Just a segue to your oft-mentioned personal, on-the-ground, knowledge of the area. And all I was asking in response was that if the Bedouins get “pissed” that’s Israel’s problem – no one else. That said, I obviously agree that the settlements are ‘tactical’ for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/428 "2012-12-05T22:22:20Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, it’s also because the Arabs were not paying their electric bills. Is it “petty and juvenile” to expect free electricity? I don’t know if you can see it, but notice how you’re painting them as “Arabs” instead of Palestinians. I guess if you dehumanize and pigeon-hole them, it’s much easier to denigrate them as modern day savages. Be that as it may, taking away their tax money is petty because it was done specifically to punish them. All that’s missing is a cross, a hood, some rope, and someone in a southern drawl talking about “uppity Arabs going to the U.N.” Keep in mind, Israel pulled similar nonsense when the people democratically voted in Hamas to replace Fatah and decided to cut utilities. Also, someone upthread posted a leaked cable from Israel which they were engaging perpetual and purposeful economic warfare with Gaza. Any comment or would you like to sidestep that one as well? Whenever Israel doesn’t get it’s way, she stomps around angrily like some petulant child and regresses into poor behavior indicative of third world countries. Further, whenever Israel is called out on her poor behavior, she passes the buck: blames the Arabs, complains that the entire world is against her and generally is unable/unwilling to see how her poor behavior has a hand in the world’s response. Let the Palestinians exist without having rely on Israel for economic security. Let Palestine have its own country with their own air space, sea ports, central bank, and military/police force. These are all fundamental prerequisites for a country. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/429 "2012-12-05T23:17:08Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t know if you can see it, but notice how you’re painting them as “Arabs” instead of Palestinians. I do that intentionally, but it’s not a matter of dehumanizing anyone, I just prefer not to play into the following game: > [@](#): > > There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity… yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel. > [@](#): > > it’s much easier to denigrate them as modern day savages. There’s no need to denigrate anyone. Their misconduct speaks for itself. > [@](#): > > Be that as it may, taking away their tax money is petty because it was done specifically to punish them. Is it always petty to punish people? Or only when Israel does it? > [@](#): > > Also, someone upthread posted a leaked cable from Israel which they were engaging perpetual and purposeful economic warfare with Gaza. I didn’t notice it, but what difference does it make? Israel is at war with Gaza. Economic sanctions are a legitimate tool of warfare. > [@](#): > > Whenever Israel doesn’t get it’s way, she stomps around angrily like some petulant child and regresses into poor behavior indicative of third world countries. Further, whenever Israel is called out on her poor behavior, she passes the buck: blames the Arabs, complains that the entire world is against her and generally is unable/unwilling to see how her poor behavior has a hand in the world’s response. Let’s get specific: Please give me 3 examples of “bad behavior” on the part of Israel and describe the world’s response. > [@](#): > > Let the Palestinians exist without having rely on Israel for economic security. Let Palestine have its own country with their own air space, sea ports, central bank, and military/police force. These are all fundamental prerequisites for a country. First let the Palestinian Arabs give up their dream of destroying Jewish Israel. Don’t appease aggressors. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/430 "2012-12-06T18:37:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I didn’t notice it, but what difference does it make? Israel is at war with Gaza. Economic sanctions are a legitimate tool of warfare. They are at peace now. So, you’d think the silent economic warfare would cease, right? > [@brazil84](#): > > Let’s get specific: Please give me 3 examples of “bad behavior” on the part of Israel and describe the world’s response. Just 3? The bad behavior exhibited by Israel rests on a three legged stool of denial of _any_ responsibility for _anything_ that Israel does and shifting the buck to the victim. If Israel was an anthropological person, she’d have traits for certain personality disorders. 1. Use of Cluster Bombs and White Phosphorous. Poor behavior: Denial; unable to accept _any_ responsibility for actions; often blames the Arabs themselves 2. Turkey Boat Incident. Poor behavior: denial; unable to accept _any_ responsibility for actions. (This one is actually easy: just fucking apologize in a heartfelt way and pay the victims family their money). 3. Failed Peace Process. Poor behavior: denial; unable to _any_ responsibility for actions past or present. 4. Mossad Hotel Hit on Dubai. Poor behavior: Speaks for itself: “Britain’s behavior is hypocritical. Who are they to judge us in the war on terror?” Well, [Mr. Eldad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryeh_Eldad), maybe Britain wouldn’t have expelled your diplomats if your government hadn’t fucking forged _ **British** _ passports to assassinate a guy on foreign soil! I mean, really, WTF? 5. Youtubing assassination in last Gaza War. Poor behavior: breaking international norms expected from Western societies for attention. I was going to go on but I got stuff to do today. But anyway, needless to say, Israel is crazy. > [@brazil84](#): > > First let the Palestinian Arabs give up their dream of destroying Jewish Israel. Don’t appease aggressors. You keep parroting “Don’t appease the aggressors” but can you give 3 examples in human history that this mantra has proved successful? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/431 "2012-12-06T19:02:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, this has been a productive debate which certainly hasn’t strayed from the OP. :rolleyes: To be fair, it wasn’t productive because as soon as he was faced with proof that his claims were wrong, Red chose to change the subject and accuse the person who proved him wrong of being an Israeli agent. Against such ‘logic’, the Gods themselves contend in vain. But, ignoring Red’s predictable evasion and CT’ing, it’s not out of the OP’s scope. The barrier will be an important consideration in future negotiations. Had the ICJ actually conducted due dilligence and not deliberately ignored both the law and the facts of the matter, their judgement against Israel would be relevant as a solid starting point for future negotiations. But as any reasonable, non-partisan, honest person would have to conclude (just several ICJ judges themselves, did) that the full facts were not presented, let alone analyzed… and the prime metric by which the law determines legality/illegality was deliberately ignored. That’s an important set of facts, especially as there are those who will attempt to claim that the ICJ’s kangaroo-court proceedings are probative of anything other than the naked bias that’s become acceptable in the UN. > [@RedFury](#): > > truth _does_ hurts in many a case. Hey, let us know when you start arguing true things that are based on facts, and when you’re debunked you don’t need to start slinging Conspiracy Theories about how Israel controls all of your debate opponents and they’re united in a malicious Israeli Hasbara plot against you. Just like, when it’s shown that the ICJ deliberately ignored both the law and the facts in order to come to a judgement, your only course of action was to change the subject to your perennial CT about Jews and/or Israeli agents who are out to get you and/or America. …_Quick_, name everybody in the US government whose name sounds Jewish to you and accuse them of being potential foreign agents (no need to say why you think they’re potential foreign agents, of course. You can find out whether or not they are once you investigate them.) Now, just run a first pass list here, Red. We can help you remove the Greek Orthodox folks later so you can focus on the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/432 "2012-12-06T19:24:00Z")
If you’re going to get stuck on a poorly composed post which I have since apologized – and retracted – for more than once, well, go ahead. Meanwhile color me unimpressed. Hasbara. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/433 "2012-12-06T19:31:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve built many bridges, but do they call me Doper the Engineer?!? > I’ve conducted multiple orchestras, but do they call me Doper the Musician?!? > I’ve played in dozens championship matches, but do they call me Doper the Athlete? > But, just once, name every Jew you can think of in the US government and accuse them all of being potential traitors because their names sound Jewish to you, and… Of course, you didn’t actually retract or apologize for anything. But I do recall that you were somewhat unhappy that you’d typed something so revealing under the influence of… well, whatever, exactly. Meanwhile, not to interrupt your CT about Israeli agents infiltrating the Dope in order to get ya, but you still haven’t managed to address your numerous factual errors earlier, and you’ve returned to your CT that Israeli agents are out to get you. I know that you just learned a new word, and evidently the mods are fine with you accusing people in GD of being Israeli operatives, but you might want to consider, really consider, whether “You’ve debunked my fiction with facts and solid citations, you must be an Israeli agent and therefore I’m still right” is the sanest, most rational type of argument one might make. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/434 "2012-12-06T19:32:41Z")
Meanwhile, in the real world: [**What exacly would Israel like to do with its Palestinian population?**](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-04/news/sns-201212041800--tms--wpfafftr--v-a20121204-20121204_1_palestinian-state-palestinian-population-palestinian-authority) > [@William Pfaff](#): > > What exactly is it that Israel intends to do with the Palestinians now in the territories that it has just opened for home construction for Jewish settlers, thereby extending its policy of occupying and annexing what are legally Palestinian lands? > > **The U.N. General Assembly’s overwhelming vote last week to grant Palestine non-member observer state status was followed by the Israeli government’s “punishment” of the Palestinians by withholding tax revenues of some $100 million due the Palestinian Authority, and by authorizing the construction of 3,000 new illegal homes for Israeli settlers in contested areas of Jerusalem, making it impossible for this territory to become, as previously assumed, and as claimed by the Palestinians, part of a future Palestinian state. If Israel has its (present) way, there will be no Palestinian state.** > > The brutality of this Israeli retaliation shocked those in the international community who had anticipated a reaction but not one so contemptuous of the General Assembly, and so insolent a rebuke to Barack Obama and the American government, which hours before had supported Israel in the assembly vote. > > The European reaction was unprecedentedly sharp, with harsh criticism by governments, ambassadors summoned for explanations and a conference scheduled for Monday between France and Britain, and possibly other European governments, to discuss further common actions against Israel. But to return to the original question, which few seem willing to pose: When Israel wins its campaign to create a single, unchallenged Jewish state on all of the land given by the U.N. in 1948 to make parallel Jewish and Arab homelands (a plan which the Arab states fought and lost), what happens to the Palestinian people left in the country? > > \ > > There will not be quite as many of them as there currently are, if they persist in their sporadic and unsuccessful outbursts of resistance, revenge or retaliation, since it is Israel that, like the imperialist powers of the past, has “the Maxim gun, and they have not” - taking the form of F-16s, cluster bombs and nuclear weapons, if necessary. However, the Palestinian birthrate is much higher than the overall rate of Israel’s Jewish population. > > What do Prime Minister Netanyahu and his colleagues intend to do with the Palestinians? **For the present, the latter are penned up in walled or barricaded enclosures on what they consider to be their own land, but the whole purpose of Israel’s national policy is to take that land away from them.** – bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/435 "2012-12-06T19:39:32Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure I understand your point. What was the value in offering the Arabs a Palestinian State which they rejected? > > … > The fact is that the Palestinian Arabs repeatedly had chances to (peacefully) have their own state. So at a minimum, “peaceful” would include accepting one of these offers. Ask instead what was the point of offering them a state with preconditions and Israeli control over parts of it. Has Israel said that if Palestine gets a state, they should be totally independent, able to raise and maintain their own military if they wanted to? Have they gotten rid of the silly demand that Palestine recognize Israel as “Jewish” state rather than just a state? Like I said, when you tried to derail the argument, appeasement has worked. Please respond to the example of England/India and Stalin before you continue down the “appeasement doesn’t work” road because sometimes, it does > [@brazil84](#): > > Who exactly was the aggressors in those situations and what is your evidence to support it? You need a cite to acknowledge that England was the aggressors in India and Stalin was an aggressor? > [@brazil84](#): > > Who were the peaceful ones who resisted non-violently in 1937, 1947, 2000, and 2008? I’m trying to understand your position here. Who are you referring to by picking those years? Are we talking about those years or now? Is your contention that because they’ve been aggressive in the past, the Palestinians can never have a state, or that borders should always be dictated by Israel? > [@brazil84](#): > > Was Stalin’s goal to occupy all of Europe? Irrelevant. You’re moving the goalposts. Respond to this: Stalin wanted something and got it through appeasement. Churchill and FDR gave Stalin what he wanted to avoid a larger, more destructive conflict. > [@brazil84](#): > > Sure it does. You were skeptical that the Palestinian Arabs repeatedly rejected offers of statehood. The Peel Plan shows that I am right and your skepticism is misplaced. No, once again you aren’t even responding to the same argument. I said that appeasement can work, you said it can’t, and gave me the Peel Partition as one example that appeasement doesn’t work. I said that the PP doesn’t support your contention about appeasement because its not a plan that was conjured up by either side. The UK was in control and it was their Royal Commission that came up with the plan. There is no appeasement because it wasn’t about one side appeasing the other, it was simply the UK trying to come to a consensus for both sides. Its not about appeasement at all, unless you think any time in the last 60 or 70 years, whenever the Palestinians have been offered something, that’s appeasement > [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, the Arabs are the ones who are demanding preconditions before negotiating. Israel has recently and repeatedly offered to negotiate without preconditions. Are you aware of that? No, they have not. Both sides at times have competing preconditions. Some are actually worthwhile (not all preconditions are the same). Saying that Israel must be recognized not only as a state but a Jewish state is a stupid precondition. Saying that Israel must stop building settlements that cut into the proposed land in a future Palestinian deal is a GOOD precondition. > [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, if Israel wanted all the Palestinian Arabs to die, they would be dead within a few months. Wanting them to die isn’t the same as killing them, or did you miss the fact that desires don’t always match the outcome? Israeli leadership wants the Palestians to die, but they cannot kill them. The retribution would be horrible and swift, and even the US would be forced to move against them. Its a stupid argument too. I guess you believe that Pakistan doesn’t want to drop nukes on Israel because it hasn’t happened yet, or North Korea doesn’t want to blow up Seoul cause it hasn’t happened yet, or the US doesn’t want to kill Castro because it hasn’t happened yet. None of those things would take a great deal of effort, but to do it successfully with minimal repercussions isn’t easy. Israeli leaders like Avigdor Lieberman have said on the record that they would rather kill the Palestinians than grant them a state. Has that happened yet? > [@brazil84](#): > > For that to work, the Arabs need to give up their dream of putting an end to Jewish Israel. How do you propose to make that happen? You mean end the Israeli dream of destroying the Palestinians? Sorry, that’s above my pay grade, I don’t know how they’d do that without retribution. Israel, though, has a much easier route. They’ve managed to beat back every attack since their creation. Give the Palestians their state, don’t worry about what the extremists say to consolidate their base, and declare war on the state of Palestine if they ever attack Israel. Right now, Israel’s position is bad, they are fighting against a people who have essentially no state, so they can’t really declare war on them, and has the majority support of most of the world. If they allow Palestine to become a state, then Israel would be the sympathetic party in a conflict. But Israel must fully withdraw from Palestine and allow them to form their own independent state for that to happen > [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not pretending at all. Please enlighten me: > > (1) Is “Palestine” a state? a geographic region? something else? > > (2) If it is a state, when did it come into existence? > > (3) What are the borders of “Palestine”? > > (4) Who are the leaders of “Palestine” and does it include the Fatah central committee? :rolleyes: > [@brazil84](#): > > I take it you concede that one can often make pretty good guesses about peoples motives and intentions based on their words and actions? Depends on if Bob is knife-proof > [@brazil84](#): > > First please represent to me that you are seriously skeptical that the quote is legitimate. Then I will provide a cite. It shouldn’t matter what I think if that is a real quote > [@brazil84](#): > > Yes, I don’t see it. Please give me 3 specific examples of things that Israel does which are not self-defense but instead are “active subjugation”. Why don’t you look at the UN resolutions that have condemned Israel for its disproportionate response to the Palestinians and tell me how Israel was right to kill all those people? Active subjugation includes building a wall that surrounds disputed or actual Palestinian territory, naval blockades, continuous building of settlements, punishing family members for what one member of the family has done, indiscriminant killing (btw, I don’t give Hamas a pass on this but we’re talking about Israel right now) and retaliation. > [@brazil84](#): > > 1. What has Israel done to “piss off” various countries around the world? > > 2. Is it your position that those countries were less hostile to Israel before it engaged in those activities? Refusal to honestly negotiate with Palestine on a 2-state solution and disproportionate killing of Palestinians. Here’s what Israel should do in order to become a better country. First, accept the Palestinian state as it stands now. There are areas controlled by them and areas controlled by Israel, make those the borders. Disputed regions such as Jerusalem can be worked out later. Accept Palestinian statehood and allow them full independence. That’s really all there is to it. After that, any conflicts can be resolved through actual diplomatic channels between them or through the UN. Right now Israel’s basically seen as a bully punishing people who are freedom fighters. By giving in to Palestinian statehood, there will no longer be that perception. Even Iran supported us after 9/11 because we were attacked. People aren’t going to be able to get riled up if Palestine becomes its own state and THEN attacks Israel ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/436 "2012-12-06T19:44:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Meanwhile, in the real world: > > [**What exacly would Israel like to do with its Palestinian population?**](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-04/news/sns-201212041800--tms--wpfafftr--v-a20121204-20121204_1_palestinian-state-palestinian-population-palestinian-authority) > > – bolding mine. Seems a lot of scaremongering in that quote. Israel is generally not expected to agree to giving up Jerusalem in any future negotiation (and never was), but the notion that such a refusal indicates the Israelis are forever closing the door on a 2 state solution, or have some nefarious plan to “deal with” the Palestinan population (insert ominous sounds of DOOM!) is over-egging the pudding, somewhat. A rather large middle is being excluded … Not that I expect Bibi to make any progress towards the 2 state goal. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/437 "2012-12-06T19:49:33Z")
Someone else’s unsupported, unsupportable, paranoid rantings… which you quote and cite, with zero effort or elaboration of your own. Do you plan on enlisting this latest author to debate with us on the Dope, or is this more an admission that your argument will be about as cogent and responsive as a canned partisan zealot’s ravings on the web? Red, just because someone hates Israrel and Israelis as much as you do, doesn’t mean that whatever they say is true. I mean, seriously, does it not give you pause to quote someone claiming that Israel’s national policy is to completely remove all the Palestinians from the area? Or is your hatred of Israel simply so totally divorced from reality, that you think that’s an accurate claim? Does it not strike you, at least one some level, that finding an _opinion piece_ to support your argument because you won’t even write your own _opinion_ and regurgitating it… well, that it might not be as strong an argument as actually knowing what you’re talking about? Perhaps, that there’s something wrong with posting something about the “real world” when your cite is simply to flights of fantasy and fiction rather than the truth? No? Really? Okay. The person-whose-opinion-you-chose-to-post-because-you-won’t-write-your-own-words has paranoid delusions about ethnic cleansing. That’s his damage. Do you want to deal with the truth now, Red, or can you find us a cite for another person-who-you-chose-to-quote-because-you-won’t-write-your-own-words, and tell us that the “real world” is that the Israelis really plan to eat the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/438 "2012-12-06T19:57:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > …Not that I expect Bibi to make any progress towards the 2 state goal. I think that’s basically the main point. And since his re-election is almost guaranteed, who knows what the area is going to look like by the time he is done. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/439 "2012-12-06T20:05:37Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I think that’s basically the main point. Except, of course, that wasn’t the point Pfaff made (funny, that… if you can tell us the main point, why can’t you type it? And why do you have to rely on someone else’s words in the first place?) Of course, that you’re now telling us that Netanyahu’s administration is the “main point” is interesting, considering what you actually bolded. > [@](#): > > When Israel wins its campaign to create a single, unchallenged Jewish state on all of the land given by the U.N. in 1948 to make parallel Jewish and Arab homelands (a plan which the Arab states fought and lost), what happens to the Palestinian people left in the country? > […] > For the present, the [Palestinians] are penned up in walled or barricaded enclosures on what they consider to be their own land, but the whole purpose of Israel’s national policy is to take that land away from them. Now, of course, you’d like to tell us that isn’t the main point at all. Why, you bolded it because the sun was in your eyes. You were tired. Best two out of three? I can understand why just regurgitating someone else’s opinions might be preferrable under such circumstances… when they’re shown to be not just wrong, but stupid, willfully ignorant and wrong, you can begin to ‘interpret’ them or change the subject. Much harder to do if someone was asking you to provide proof for your own claims. This way you can say “Gee gorsh, Pfaff isn’t a Doper. I guess we can’t actually debate him. Funny, then, why I’m posting his words in a forum for debate instead of my own. Anyways, let me post someone else’s words now and change the subject.” So, do you have any actual facts on your side to support your claim (let’s not play games, we all know why you quoted and bolded it) that Israel is in the process of ethnically cleansing “all of the land given by the U.N. in 1948 to make parallel Jewish and Arab homelands”? Can you support your claim, at all? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/440 "2012-12-06T20:35:50Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > They are at peace now. So, you’d think the silent economic warfare would cease, right? If they really are at peace, yes. Please link to a copy of the signed peace agreement and to evidence that Israel has engaged in subsequent economic warfare against Gaza. Also, please answer my question from before: Is it always petty to punish? Or only when Israel does it? I am trying to figure out the principle behind your assertion that Israel is “petty” for (allegedly) punishing the Palestinian Arabs. > [@](#): > > Just 3? The bad behavior exhibited by Israel rests on a three legged stool of denial of _any_ responsibility for _anything_ that Israel does and shifting the buck to the victim. If Israel was an anthropological person, she’d have traits for certain personality disorders. Lol, well let’s see if that’s true. > [@](#): > > 1. Use of Cluster Bombs and White Phosphorous. Poor behavior: Denial; unable to accept _any_ responsibility for actions; often blames the Arabs themselves I’m skeptical of your claim. Please show me proof that (1) Israel used Cluster Bombs and then denied having done so; (2) Israel used White Phosphorus and then denied having done so; (3) and blamed the Arabs for having done so. > [@](#): > > 1. Turkey Boat Incident. Poor behavior: denial; unable to accept _any_ responsibility for actions. (This one is actually easy: just fucking apologize in a heartfelt way and pay the victims family their money). What exactly did Israel deny having done? And what exactly were Israel’s actions which it denied any responsibility for? I am trying to understand your position here. > [@](#): > > 1. Failed Peace Process. Poor behavior: denial; unable to _any_ responsibility for actions past or present. What exactly did Israel deny? And exactly what actions did Israel refuse to accept responsibility for? Please give me specifics, not more conclusions. > [@](#): > > 1. Mossad Hotel Hit on Dubai. Poor behavior: Speaks for itself: What exactly is the poor behavior? Assassinating a terrorist? Forging documents? > [@](#): > > 1. Youtubing assassination in last Gaza War. Poor behavior: breaking international norms expected from Western societies for attention. Exactly what are the international norms Israel violated? Please source them. > [@](#): > > You keep parroting “Don’t appease the aggressors” but can you give 3 examples in human history that this mantra has proved successful? I could try, but I’ve been mainly going on common sense. I take it you dispute that appeasing aggressors is bad policy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=23)