# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/481 "2012-12-08T17:01:07Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > 1. The first link blames the breakdown of negotiations on the Palestinian precondition that settlement construction cease. I believe that is a reasonable demand to make, so no updating necessary. It may be reasonable, and it may not. In any case, it is a point to be raised in the negotiation, not before. > [@](#): > > To me, it seems like we’re taking this at face value, that its Palestine’s precondition so why are they asking for one when Israel can’t? But every issue has at least 2 sides, and one can rightly look at it from the opposite side and say that Israel’s precondition to talks is that they are allowed to continue settlements. Viewed that way, its Israel who’s making the precondition. Not so. There is always the _status quo_. Any attempt to change it requires the will of all involved to do so. If one side wishes to change it and the other do not, than the side wishing the change is placing a condition. And if that condition is placed before the initiation of the negotiation, then it is a precondition. The side wishing to maintain the status quo does not make a precondition, by the very definition of the term. > [@](#): > > 1. Your second link says much of the same, and again the Israeli side is pushing for their precondition of allowing the settlements to go on. Unlike the Palestinians who have little power in this case, Israel can ask for talks and continue settlements, and make the Palestinians look like bad guys for not agreeing to talk since they can’t stop Israel from building settlements. I wonder what Israel’s response would be if Palestinian trucks and bulldozers moved across the border and started building houses and refused to stop? Israel does not demand the continuation of the settlements as a precondition. If the negotiations will lead elsewhere, so shall be. And yes, Israel and Palestine do not negotiate from the same place. So? And if we’re talking rhetorics, I wonder what would have been the fate of the Jews if the Arabs had won the 1948 war or the 1967 war. And would anyone demand the refugees (if any are left) be relocated into their original place. > [@](#): > > 1. Third link actually supports my contention that Israel doesn’t want to talk unless its recognized as a Jewish state. I think that’s really a non-starter. The Palestinian Authority can recognize Israel as a state, what happens in its own borders is not their concern, and quite frankly beyond the scope of their powers to enforce. There’s no reason that Israel needs to be recognized as a “Jewish” state any more than the US is a “White” state and France is a “Cheese” state. 😃 No, it quite clearly does not support your claim. Please provide cite or withdraw. The 4th link, which you disregarded, states quite the opposite – Israel can pose its own preconditions, but do not. > [@](#): > > 1. And last, link really doesn’t say anything new. Netanyahu can say he doesn’t want preconditions, but if he continues to build settlements, then that is not an honest negotiation. Right… who cares what the Israeli PM says. Everyone knows what he really wants… > [@](#): > > What I would like to see is 2 things prior to talks: Recognition that Palestine has recognized Israel as a state for almost 2 decades already without the need to see it as a Jewish state, and a stoppage of all settlements from now until such time in the future as a 2 state solution has been established. to summarize, let me see if I understand your position: 1. Negotiation should begin without preconditions. 2. The Palestinian demands from the negotiations should be accepted before the initiation of the negotiations. 3. Israel must forgo its own demands before the negotiation. So, we must negotiate without preconditions, on the precondition the Palestinian preconditions are met, and another precondition that Israeli demands are withdrawn. Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/482 "2012-12-08T17:15:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The fertility rate of the Palestinian Arabs is steadily declining. The fertility rate of West Bank settlers is high and increasing. cite? > [@](#): > > If these trends continue, the West Bank will be majority Jewish sooner or later. That’s a mighty big “if”. And why did you say 50-100 years? Why not 500? > [@](#): > > I don’t see why. Like you said in your next post: if Israel were to annex the WB and Gaza, and gave the Palestinians citizenship, it would be a one-state solution, that is not accepted by Israel, as it would violate the Jewish part if Israel’s identity. So, the relevant options are: 1. Annex the area, but don’t grant citizenship to the population. Thus creating two classes of people, violating the Democratic part of Israel’s identity - and being immoral. 2. Don’t annex the territory, and wait for some future when things look better. Which means you keep a large number of people, who gained national identity, without rights. Hence immoral. > [@](#): > > I don’t see this either. The world hates Israel regardless of what Israel does or does not do. All this stuff about tanks in Gaza, settlements, separation fences, and so forth are just excuses. The world might condemn these things, but subconsciously what they are really thinking is “Stop being Jewish at me!!” Being that as it may, it does not change the fact that the word at large will most likely not stand by forever. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/483 "2012-12-08T17:29:49Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > cite? I am happy to provide cites if you first represent to me that you are seriously skeptical of the claim. > [@](#): > > That’s a mighty big “if”. I don’t think it’s that big. Arab fertility has been dropping for quite a while now. > [@](#): > > And why did you say 50-100 years? Why not 500? 50 to 100 years is my rough estimate. > [@](#): > > Like you said in your next post: if Israel were to annex the WB and Gaza, and gave the Palestinians citizenship, it would be a one-state solution, that is not accepted by Israel, as it would violate the Jewish part if Israel’s identity. Ok, but waiting until there is a comfortable Jewish majority would get around that problem, agreed? So, the relevant options are: > [@](#): > > 1. Annex the area, but don’t grant citizenship to the population. Thus creating two classes of people, violating the Democratic part of Israel’s identity - and being immoral. I basically agree. > [@](#): > > 1. Don’t annex the territory, and wait for some future when things look better. Which means you keep a large number of people, who gained national identity, without rights. Hence immoral. Disagree. I don’t see any immorality in limiting peoples’ rights if it’s reasonably necessary to prevent a greater evil. In the case of the Arabs, giving them political autonomy as a group will be destructive both for Israel as well as for the Arabs themselves. Look, if you think it’s immoral to deny the Arabs of the West Bank political autonomy; and you think that this consideration trumps any other principle, then you must believe that Israel should withdraw immediately. Right? > [@](#): > > Being that as it may, it does not change the fact that the word at large will most likely not stand by forever. Well what do you think the world outside of Israel would do if Israel waited for a Jewish majority and then annexed the West Bank just like it did with Golan? Issue more condemnations in the United Nations? Launch rockets? Call for boycotts? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/484 "2012-12-08T17:49:38Z")
Why am I not shocked that Brazil84 demands cites to show Hamas was influential in Gaza prior to Sharon’s withdrawal but refuses to provide any citation for his bizarre claim that due to changing fertility rates Jews in the West Bank will outnumber Palestinians in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/485 "2012-12-08T20:03:48Z")
Wh not create a mixed Jewish-Muslim state-call it Israelstine"- integration would be mandatory-no segregation allowed. The citizens of this state would have dual nationality (if they wished). That might be the solution. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/486 "2012-12-08T20:41:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > refuses to provide any citation for his bizarre claim that due to changing fertility rates Jews in the West Bank will outnumber Palestinians in the West Bank. I don’t know about “outnumbering” - that would take a while - but: Arab birth rate in West Bank has dipped below 3 and has been dropping steadily - was around 7-8 in the past. Jewish birth rate in West Bank is 5+ and has been increasing steadily. See for example [http://ialiis.birzeit.edu/userfiles/Youssef-Courbage.ppt](http://ialiis.birzeit.edu/userfiles/Youssef-Courbage.ppt) (note that this study comes from the Palestinian university of Birzeit, so you can’t claim pro-Zionist bias). ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/487 "2012-12-08T21:30:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I am happy to provide cites if you first represent to me that you are seriously skeptical of the claim. Well, I am. I know some of the settlers (not all of them) have a high number of children per family. I don’t know that the rates are increasing. And while I’ve read that fertility rates among Israeli Arabs are dropping, I’m yet to see similar claims WRT the WB Arabs. So, if you don’t mind - cite? > [@](#): > > 50 to 100 years is my rough estimate. Without any number to back that up, it’s not so much a rough estimate as it is a wishful thinking. > [@](#): > > Ok, but waiting until there is a comfortable Jewish majority would get around that problem, agreed? IF that will ever happens. And IF the international community will wait that long. THEN it will get around _that_ problem. But not the moral issue. > [@](#): > > Disagree. I don’t see any immorality in limiting peoples’ rights if it’s reasonably necessary to prevent a greater evil. In the case of the Arabs, giving them political autonomy as a group will be destructive both for Israel as well as for the Arabs themselves. But since limiting their rights is a sure thing, while the bad outcome is just a guess on your part, I think the scales don’t tip to your favor. > [@](#): > > Look, if you think it’s immoral to deny the Arabs of the West Bank political autonomy; and you think that this consideration trumps any other principle, then you must believe that Israel should withdraw immediately. Right?]. I didn’t say it “trumps any other principle”, now did I? But yes, I do think the Israel should cease expending the settlements, and that we should try as hard as we can to negotiate with the PA, on the basis of the '67 lines, with consideration for the non-revocable changes, e.g., land swaps. > [@](#): > > Well what do you think the world outside of Israel would do if Israel waited for a Jewish majority and then annexed the West Bank just like it did with Golan? Issue more condemnations in the United Nations? Launch rockets? Call for boycotts? Boycotts sounds about right. Political isolation isn’t a field day either. Nor is an economical one, a scientific one, a tourism one, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/488 "2012-12-08T23:02:06Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Wh not create a mixed Jewish-Muslim state-call it Israelstine"- integration would be mandatory-no segregation allowed. The citizens of this state would have dual nationality (if they wished). > That might be the solution. Ah, so you support the “Lebanon model” for Israel. Obvious objections. A)both sides would reject it. B)no one could force the Israelis to accept it. C)why would the Papestinian Christians support this? D)it didn’t work well in Lebanon, to say the least, where Christians and Muslims had a shared language, extremely similar cultures, and several centuries worth of shared history which for the most part was peaceful and where hostility between the two was vastly less than in Israel. With all due respect, that would be just about the worst possible solution. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/489 "2012-12-09T00:57:42Z")
Question: bullshit aside, anyone here truly believes that Israel wants anything other that a Jewish nation/home which _includes_ both Gaza & The West Bank? Which takes me back to a few posts upthread, what to do with the **Palestinians**? That’s the bottom line. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/490 "2012-12-09T01:40:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Question: bullshit aside, anyone here truly believes that Israel wants anything other that a Jewish nation/home which _includes_ both Gaza & The West Bank? Yes. (It is, of course, meaningless to talk about what “Israel wants,” as there are lots and lots of points of view expressed within Israeli politics. So I will say: I believe that there are many Israelis – whether or not a majority, I do not know – whose goals do not include annexation of the West Bank or Gaza.) ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/491 "2012-12-09T04:40:54Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Question: bullshit aside, anyone here truly believes that Israel wants anything other that a Jewish nation/home which _includes_ both Gaza & The West Bank? Another Yes. And to add to what **Trinopus** said – even the majority of those who would _like_ an Israel which include both WB and G, realize now that it’s now a viable solution, and are willing to compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/492 "2012-12-09T04:52:20Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Question: bullshit aside, anyone here truly believes that Israel wants anything other that a Jewish nation/home which _includes_ both Gaza & The West Bank? Which takes me back to a few posts upthread, what to do with the **Palestinians**? > > That’s the bottom line. Apart from **RedFury** , apparently, it would be almost impossible to find anyone who would think that Israel wants Gaza. Even the most fervent “Eretz Yisrael Ha-shlema” adherents would readily admit that Gaza was never historically part of it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/493 "2012-12-09T09:42:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Wh not create a mixed Jewish-Muslim state-call it Israelstine"- integration would be mandatory-no segregation allowed. The citizens of this state would have dual nationality (if they wished). > That might be the solution. There are a lot of problems with that. Even assuming that the Muslims did not actively persecute the Jews, a Muslim-majority Israel would surely change the immigration laws to prevent further Jewish immigration and encourage substantial Muslim immigration. Which kind of defeats the purpose of setting up a safe refuge for Jews. Is there any country which (1) has a majority of Arab Muslims; and (2) is reasonably livable for minorities? I can’t think of one. It’s reasonable to expect that an Israel which was majority Arab Muslims would become a lot less pleasant for Jews. Just based on the track record. And ignoring the fact that generation after generation of Arabs in the area (both Muslim and Christian) have been raised on extreme hatred of Israeli Jews. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/494 "2012-12-09T15:35:25Z")
> [@Puzzler](#): > > Well, I am. > I know some of the settlers (not all of them) have a high number of children per family. I don’t know that the rates are increasing. > And while I’ve read that fertility rates among Israeli Arabs are dropping, I’m yet to see similar claims WRT the WB Arabs. > So, if you don’t mind - cite? > > Without any number to back that up, it’s not so much a rough estimate as it is a wishful thinking. Ok, let’s do some math. First of all, will you accept Terr’s cites from Post #? If not, I can try to find something more authoritative. Next, let’s look at the phenomenal rate of growth of Jewish settlements on the West Bank. According to Wikipedia, that rate is approximately 5 to 6 percent per year. Let’s assume that part of that is due to immigration and take a figure of 4% per year as the growth rate due to good old fashioned reproduction. Note that one can expect this rate to go up over time as the breeders become a larger and larger percentage of the population. At the moment there are about 650,000 Jews living on the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem. Thus, at an annual growth rate of 4%, one can expect that in 100 years about 32 million Jews. This may be a high estimate, but it’s pretty easy to see that in 6 or so generations, there is likely to be a huge number of Jews living in the area. Ok, now what about the Arab side? According to Wikipedia, the Arab population of the West Bank and East Jerusalem is approximately 2.5 million people and a growth rate of 2.09 percent. Is that growth rate increasing or decreasing? I think it’s pretty well known to be decreasing. I did a Google search and found [this paper](http://paa2007.princeton.edu/papers/70527) which claims that Arab fertility rates are dropping on the West Bank. Let me know if you are skeptical on this issue and I will try to find some more sources. Anyway, if we start with 2.5 million people and assume a growth rate of 2.0 percent for the next hundred years, you end up with about 18 million people. This estimate is almost certainly high since fertility rates among the Arabs are likely to keep declining to replacement and perhaps lower. Just like fertility rates declined just about everywhere in the world except among devout Christians and Jews. Of course, you might quibble with some of my numbers, but I think it’s pretty clear that it’s totally reasonable to expect a comfortable Jewish majority on the West Bank in the next 50 to 100 years. Arab population on the West Bank is likely to level off whereas Jewish population is likely to keep exploding. It won’t take too many doublings for the Jewish population to get ahead. > [@](#): > > But since limiting their rights is a sure thing, while the bad outcome is just a guess on your part, I think the scales don’t tip to your favor. It’s a guess in the same way I guess that it will snow somewhere in the United States in the next 2 months. But let’s see if I understand your position: You believe that it’s immoral to limit the rights of a group of people unless you are absolutely certain of a bad outcome without those limits? > [@](#): > > I didn’t say it “trumps any other principle”, now did I? You didn’t say it explicitly but you seem to have implied it. Let me ask you this: Why shouldn’t Israel agree to Palestinian Statehood and withdraw from (most of) the West Bank right now? By occupying an area without giving citizenship and voting rights to the people there, isn’t Israel behaving immorally in your view? Why shouldn’t Israel cease its immoral behavior immediately? > [@](#): > > Boycotts sounds about right. Political isolation isn’t a field day either. Nor is an economical one, a scientific one, a tourism one, and so forth. Lol, that stuff has been going on since 1947 and will continue regardless of whether Israel annexes the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/495 "2012-12-09T15:59:44Z")
Leaving aside the fact that we’ve been talking about “the West Bank” not “the West Bank and East Jerusalem” anyone who thinks that 100 years from now the Jewish population on the West Bank will have jumped from just a few hundred thousand to 32 million people has been staring so hard at the trees they missed the forest. It should be noted there are on 14 million Jews in the entire world today. Beyond that, I’ll note Brazil84 hasn’t produced a single Israeli academic or spokesperson who’s argued that Jews should “within 50 years” outnumber Arabs on the West Bank due to their fertility rates. The reason he hasn’t is because frankly there probably aren’t any who believe his rather irrational theory. If one doesn’t believe me, ask any of the Israelis on this board. In fact, just the opposite is true. Israeli academics argue over whether the “demographic problem” is real or exagerated, but none are arguing that there’s a reverse demographic bomb and the Jews are on course to outbreed the Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/496 "2012-12-09T18:59:42Z")
OK, how about a Yugoslavia model? Set up lots of little states-each one reflecting a different ethnic group (like Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro…etc.) In the case of Palestine/Israel, there could be a Druse state, a Christian State, a Sunni state, Jewish state-and have them in some kind of Federal Union. Ops…I guess “Yugoslavia” wasn’t such a good idea…:eek: ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/497 "2012-12-09T19:32:17Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > OK, how about a Yugoslavia model? Set up lots of little states-each one reflecting a different ethnic group (like Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro..etc.) In the case of Palestine/Israel, there could be a Druse state, a Christian State, a Sunni state, Jewish state-and have them in some kind of Federal Union. > Ops..I guess “Yugoslavia” wasn’t such a good idea..:eek: Look, any power that the Arabs get over the Jews will be used to get rid of the “Jewish state” if possible. Besides which, the Arabs have a pretty bad track record when it comes to power-sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/498 "2012-12-09T19:44:48Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Look, any power that the Arabs get over the Jews will be used to get rid of the “Jewish state” if possible. Besides which, the Arabs have a pretty bad track record when it comes to power-sharing. Whereas “the Jews” have a fantastic track record when it comes to treating ethnic minorities well, as the Arab Israelis can testify to. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/499 "2012-12-09T21:50:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Apart from **RedFury** , apparently, it would be almost impossible to find anyone who would think that Israel wants Gaza. Even the most fervent “Eretz Yisrael Ha-shlema” adherents would readily admit that Gaza was never historically part of it. Perhaps not, but what the Israelis **don’t** want is an independent Arab Gaza on their borders. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/500 "2012-12-09T21:54:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps not, but what the Israelis **don’t** want is an independent Arab Gaza on their borders. They don’t have any alternatives that aren’t worse for their own prospects as an independent Jewish Israel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=26)