# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/601 "2012-12-19T15:10:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > this particular paranoia Interesting enough, you responded to Red’s citation of the UN’s kangaroo court which was so blatantly biased against Israel that _several of its own judges remarked that the law wasn’t actually applied fully and the relevant facts weren’t allowed into evidence let alone considered_… and your response is something about paranoia and how your camp is being persecuted. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > People may unjustly extrapolate the activities of AIPAC to the general Jewish populace Also known as “racism”, but moving along… > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > but its pretty hard to pretend that AIPAC isn’t an Israel lobby. Read the article. There’s a difference between “Israel Lobby” and “Jewish Lobby”. It’s also interesting that Hagel jumps to the same tired old failure of a defense that many anti-Israel partisans on the Dope do when caught out in a difference of opinion on proper policy; he alleges that people who disagree with him on American foreign policy must really want American lawmakers to put a foreign nation ahead of us. One might even say that it’s an allegation of putting Israel, hrm… First. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/602 "2012-12-19T15:16:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sure you’re shocked, shocked by his refusal to produce a cite. Well, he was gone for a while. I thought new **brazil** might have mastered Google by now. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/603 "2012-12-19T15:18:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you by chance notice what I was responding _to_? Hint: Not that. :rolleyes: Actually, you seem to have missed what you were responding to. See, [this was the post you were responding to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15802029&postcount=551), and [this was your response.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15802634&postcount=552) So, of course that’s what you were responding to. Glad I could help you understand that. Now, I **suspect** that what you meant to say is “Sure, that’s what I was responding to, but I didn’t really notice or care what the subject under discussion was, I just wanted to claim that nobody can criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite, since if I don’t have an argument I can at least hop up on the cross.” Easy typo to make, Elvis. P.S. You still haven’t explain what exactly you meant by IOKIAJ. I wonder why. (I see where you’re looking sir, and I’ll have you know that the cross is booked solid six months in advance by folks who are preparing to open their 1st post in Israel threads by declaring, woe unto them, for they are surely to be accused of anti-Semitism shortly, just as has never ever happened to them on the Dope any times ever.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/604 "2012-12-19T15:24:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you by chance notice what I was responding _to_? Hint: Not that. :rolleyes: > > Perhaps you and \*\*Finn \*\*should address each other. You’re both inventing a Straw Elvis who does not interest me at all. Yes, your post is #552 which was responding to post #551, which was responding to the discussion concering Israel as most reviled country in the world. For clarity, here’s the chain: **Caroza** > [@](#): > > Can’t imagine why. It couldn’t be that they commit more human rights violations than the rest of the world combined. Could it? **Malthus** > [@](#): > > You really, seriously believe this to be true? **Brazil84** > [@](#): > > I don’t know if **caroza** is just messing with us, but I think it’s worth keeping in mind that there are a lot of people out there who seriously believe, at least at some level, that Israel is the very worst country in the world; that Israel should not exist; that Israel will inevitably fall; and that everything should be done to hasten this process. > > I would guess that this is a common attitude among nations which are involved in the UN Human Rights Commission. Why else would Israel be condemned more than all other nations combined? **Elvis1Lives** > [@](#): > > Because, of course, condemnation of Israel’s actions can’t really be based on those actions. It has to be simple antisemitism, and therefore peremptorily dismissable, because IOKIAJ, right? Why the hell can’t the entire rest of the world realize that? **Malthus** again > [@](#): > > IOKIAJ? > > I sense and exluded middle here. > > On the one hand, certainly one can believe that actual Israeli abuses occur and ought to be condemned. > > On the other hand, IMO no it isn’t possible that Israel commits more human rights abuses than any other country, or indeed the rest of the world combined. That simply is not factually true. Again, IMO. > > Both positions can be held simultaneously … hence my question (which has gone unanswered) - does caroza, or do you for that matter, seriously believe that Israel “… commit more human rights violations than the rest of the world combined”? Seems pretty clear to me. I can’t see the “Straw Elvis” you are complaining about. Or what exactly it was you were “responding to” other than the posts that immedialy preceded yours. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/605 "2012-12-19T15:34:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you by chance notice what I was responding _to_? Hint: Not that. :rolleyes: > > Perhaps you and \*\*Finn \*\*should address each other. You’re both inventing a Straw Elvis who does not interest me at all. So then what did you mean with the acronym IOKIAJ and why did you type it out? I’m not accusing you of anything, I’m merely asking politely so please explain for those of us who don’t use textspeak. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/606 "2012-12-19T15:57:42Z")
**ibn** , I was expressing frustration, as someone who considers himself civilized and desiring peace, with the endless stream of rationalizations, special pleading, claims of exceptionalism and persecution, accusations of ignorance, denial, irresponsibility, racism, exceptionalism, self-justification of lebensraum, and general narcissism that we see from the yahoo side almost to the exclusion of anything else anymore. Israel wasn’t always like that, and neither were its people, but something changed, tragically. \*\*Malthus \*\*and **Finn** , have a nice day on your planets. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/607 "2012-12-19T15:58:29Z")
If I may, IOKIAJ is a variation on IOKIARDI (and similar phrases), which stands for “it’s OK if a Republican does it”, i.e. a sarcastic comment that an earlier poster’s pro-Republican statement shows bias - that the poster is okay with the Republican’s action because he is sympathetic to the Republican’s goals, and the same action from a Democrat would instead have earned abuse and criticism. For example, if a Democrat takes action that suppresses voting from people likely to vote against the Democrats, there are posters on this board who will call that grossly immoral and unconstitutional. If a Republican does it, though, that’s just clever electoral strategy. Feel free to swap Republicans and Democrats in the above example (i.e. IOKIADDI), which was chosen only for illustration and not as a comment on either party. In that specific case of “IOKIAJ”, it seems the trailing “DI” was dropped (laziness? efficiency? meh, I could care less), but the sentiment is the same. The person who wrote that is claiming that someone is defending the actions of Jews just because they _are_ Jews, and similar actions from other groups would be cause for criticism. It’s an accusation of hypocrisy, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/608 "2012-12-19T16:04:25Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Wow, this [New York Times article makes me hope that Chuck Hagel becomes the next secretary of defense](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/us/politics/chuck-hagel-candidate-for-defense-post-criticized-by-jewish-leaders.html?_r=0). > > It also gives me a fresh perspective on those who question his qualifications and history. The guy is awesome and it’s unbelievably sad that there are some who want to make the most reflexively antagonistic approach to the Middle East a litmus test for an American official. You think Jim Baker and Henry Kissinger had “the most reflexively antagonistic approach to the Middle East”? Beyond that, what makes you classify Hagel as “awesome” based on a brief article in the New York Times? Besides, if he’s not nominated it won’t be for criticizing AIPAC, but for complaint about “the Jewish lobby” and it’s influence. Do you really think it’s appropriate to refer to “the Jewish lobby” instead of “the Israeli lobby” and to whine about Jewish American influence? If so, please explain your logic. BTW, the above isn’t meant to be accusatory but is merely an honest question. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/609 "2012-12-19T16:06:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **ibn** , I was expressing frustration, as someone who considers himself civilized and desiring peace, with the endless stream of rationalizations, special pleading, claims of exceptionalism and persecution, accusations of ignorance, denial, irresponsibility, racism, exceptionalism, self-justification of lebensraum, and general narcissism that we see from the yahoo side almost to the exclusion of anything else anymore. Your Pit-lite post to the contrary (complete with Godwinizing the topic, good job Elvis), people able to read and comprehend English will note that you didn’t actually respond to his question, just changed the subject your flaming people who regularly hand you your head in these sorts of debates. Care to elaborate on your claim that you are being persecuted and that said persecution is somehow organized by those who think that “It’s Okay If [you’re?] A Jew.” How does that relate to “exceptionalism”, ol’ buddy? Are you, pr’aps, referring to “Jewish exceptionalism?” Do feel free to change the subject with a general rant about how the people who prove your argument wrong on the facts and irrational in its attempts at logic must be “narcisists”. (Pro Tip: you really should look up a word you don’t know before you use it, you probably meant “sociopath” not “narcissist.”) > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > \*\*Malthus \*\*and **Finn** , have a nice day on your planets. So we both provide citations of your own words, in context, and exactly what they were referring to… and you claim, in response, that we must live on alternate worlds. Do you generally find that denying your own quoted, cited, archived, never-going-to-change-ever statements is an effective strategy with people whose grey matter exists from the brain stem up? Or is it more a tactic of desperation and failure? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/610 "2012-12-19T16:18:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **ibn** , I was expressing frustration, as someone who considers himself civilized and desiring peace, with the endless stream of rationalizations, special pleading, claims of exceptionalism and persecution, accusations of ignorance, denial, irresponsibility, racism, exceptionalism, self-justification of lebensraum, and general narcissism that we see from the yahoo side almost to the exclusion of anything else anymore. Israel wasn’t always like that, and neither were its people, but something changed, tragically. > > \*\*Malthus \*\*and **Finn** , have a nice day on your planets. See how nasty those pro-Israel Yahoos are, and Israel and its people? They make peace-loving and civilized **Elvis** lash out in frustration. 😃 They _used_ to be cool. But they changed, man. Am I the only one deriving amusement from the fact that I’ve been preemptively dismissed in the very same thread by pro-Israeli **Brazil84** and anti-Israeli **ElvisL1ves**? 😃 **ElvisL1ves** > [@](#): > > Malthus and Finn, have a nice day on your planets. **Brazil84** > [@](#): > > Anyway, I have no interest in chasing a moving goalpost. This exchange is concluded. > > Bye. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/611 "2012-12-19T16:21:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If I may, IOKIAJ is a variation on IOKIARDI The difference is that It’s Okay If You’re A Democrat is an accusation of partisan loyalty and double-standards. However, “It’s Okay If A Jew” is an accusation of clannish loyalty, preference for in-group members to the detriment and at the expense of out-group members, and so on. Especially when coupled with Elvis’ accusation that his camp is being persecuted by a group of people who believe in Jewish “exceptionalism”. It goes beyond being an accusation of hypocrisy in the context in which Elvis uses it. Which, of course, is why he can’t or won’t actually voice a cogent explanation as to what he meant and instead only spit vitriol at his opponents in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/612 "2012-12-19T16:22:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **ibn** , I was expressing frustration, as someone who considers himself civilized and desiring peace, with the endless stream of rationalizations, special pleading, claims of exceptionalism and persecution, accusations of ignorance, denial, irresponsibility, racism, exceptionalism, self-justification of lebensraum, and general narcissism that we see from the yahoo side almost to the exclusion of anything else anymore. Israel wasn’t always like that, and neither were its people, but something changed, tragically. > > \*\*Malthus \*\*and **Finn** , have a nice day on your planets. Thanks for the answer, but you still haven’t explained what you meant by claiming IOKIAJ? Specifically are the people who say you meant “It’s okay, it’s a Jew” correct? If so, what did you mean by that? Are you seriously arguing that Jews are some sort of privilliged group? If so, please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/613 "2012-12-19T19:08:41Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The difference is that It’s Okay If You’re A Democrat is an accusation of partisan loyalty and double-standards. However, “It’s Okay If A Jew” is an accusation of clannish loyalty, preference for in-group members to the detriment and at the expense of out-group members, and so on. Especially when coupled with Elvis’ accusation that his camp is being persecuted by a group of people who believe in Jewish “exceptionalism”. > > It goes beyond being an accusation of hypocrisy in the context in which Elvis uses it. Which, of course, is why he can’t or won’t actually voice a cogent explanation as to what he meant and instead only spit vitriol at his opponents in GD. It’s our fault. We made him use the term. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/614 "2012-12-19T19:53:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > BTW, the above isn’t meant to be accusatory but is merely an honest question. Why did you feel the need to add that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/615 "2012-12-19T20:05:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Thanks for the answer, but you still haven’t explained what you meant by claiming IOKIAJ? > > Specifically are the people who say you meant “It’s okay, it’s a Jew” correct? > > If so, what did you mean by that? > > Are you seriously arguing that Jews are some sort of privilliged group? > > If so, please explain. Well, if I may, again. “IOKI” expressions aren’t, in my experience, said sincerely by people who are defending the groups in question. Rather, it’s an accusation one makes against people who, one perceives, are defending the group in question in a hypocritical manner. Person 1: I see Group A is at it again. What a bunch of jerks. Person 2: But yesterday you praised Group B and they were doing the same thing. Person 1: The actions and circumstances are significantly different, though. Person 2: Bullshit. Obviously to you, IOKIGBDI [i.e. it’s okay if Group B does it]. The differences noted by Person 1 might have merit or they might not, but Person 2 has already decided Person 1 is a hypocrite (possibly justly, possibly not), end of debate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/616 "2012-12-19T20:06:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you seriously arguing that Jews are some sort of privilliged group? No, that many Israelis (and pro-Likud people who don’t actually live there) see themselves as such, that the moral standards that generally apply to the rest of the world don’t apply to them. It’s deploring hypocrisy and self-delusion, and the ugliness and pain that follow from it. Clear now? The acronym, since you sincerely ask, is derived from [IOKIYAR](http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbo=d&biw=1002&bih=630&q=iokiyar&oq=iokiyar&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.1264.2449.0.4197.7.7.0.0.0.0.187.952.0j7.7.0.les%3Bcqn%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D1%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue%2Conetoken%3Dfalse..0.0...1c.1.sIk-jEXd4Js&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ&fp=91bc34ef97bcb3b6&bpcl=40096503). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/617 "2012-12-19T20:06:18Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Why did you feel the need to add that? Because tempers have flared on this subject and I wanted it clear I wasn’t trying to imply anything. Anyone would you mind answering the questions I posed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/618 "2012-12-19T20:12:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, that many Israelis (and pro-Likud people who don’t actually live there) see themselves as such, that the moral standards that generally apply to the rest of the world don’t apply to them. It’s deploring hypocrisy and self-delusion, and the ugliness and pain that follow from it. Clear now? > > The acronym, since you sincerely ask, is derived from [IOKIYAR](http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&tbo=d&biw=1002&bih=630&q=iokiyar&oq=iokiyar&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.1264.2449.0.4197.7.7.0.0.0.0.187.952.0j7.7.0.les%3Bcqn%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D1%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue%2Conetoken%3Dfalse..0.0...1c.1.sIk-jEXd4Js&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ&fp=91bc34ef97bcb3b6&bpcl=40096503). Ok, then if your point was meant to be about "Israelis and pro-Likud people then why didn’t you type out IOKIAI(it’s okay it’s an Israeli) instead “It’s Okay It’s a Jew”? Also what’s with the “pro-Likud” comment? What makes you think the people you’re attacking support Likud over Labour or Kadima? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/619 "2012-12-19T20:14:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you really think it’s appropriate to refer to “the Jewish lobby” instead of “the Israeli lobby” and to whine about Jewish American influence? I’ll give that a shot, given your sincerity. Those are not the same thing. Jewry /= Israel. Support of Israel may and often does require \*opposition \*to its government and its actions, and to the electorate and the attitudes that put it in power. There are different forms of patriotism than mere yahooism, after all, and most of them are more respectable and more civilized. However “the Israeli lobby” typically refers to the yahooist version, and implies that we need to bankroll whatever the hell Netanyahu does, without question, or else we’re just antisemitic. Similarly, some issues important or relevant to the Jewish community of the United States have jackshit to do with Israel, although they mostly do, making “the Jewish lobby” a useful term. Does that help? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/620 "2012-12-19T20:42:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’ll give that a shot, given your sincerity… > > Similarly, some issues important or relevant to the Jewish community of the United States have jackshit to do with Israel, although they mostly do, making “the Jewish lobby” a useful term. > > Does that help? Thanks for the compliment. However, based on what you’re saying Chuck Hagel’s reference to “the Jewish lobby” was at best quite offensive since AIPAC doesn’t care about issues that “have jackshit to do with Israel” and isn’t even an exclusively Jewish organization. Had Hagel referred to either of the AJCs(American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress) that would have made sense since those are Jewish organizations concerned with helping the American Jewish community or, to a lesser extent had he applied the term to the ADL. However, he did. He used the term to apply to AIPAC. Similarly, had he labeled CAIR as “the Muslim lobby” or AADC as “the Arab lobby” he’d certainly have recieved heat from Muslim Americans and Arab-Americans even though such a comment would have been more defensible than calling AIPAC “the Jewish Lobby”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=32)