# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/661 "2012-12-22T07:04:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Damuri, did you actually read the article? > > I ask because Hagel didn’t refer to it as “an Israel lobby” and no one would have objected to him referring to it as such. > > You do know what AIPAC stands for without having to look it up don’t you? Yeah I know what AIPAC stands for. The ADL might be a Jewish organization but it is also a fairly pro-Israel organization. The web of pro-Israel lobbying organizations in DC melds almost seamlessly into the Jewish lobby. There is very little controversy that the Israel/Jewish lobby exerts a lot of influence in DC. So do a lot of other interests like the gun lobby, the insurance lobby, real estate lobby, etc., and like these other lobbies, people wonder if this outsized influence is in the best interests of the United States. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Interesting enough, you responded to Red’s citation of the UN’s kangaroo court which was so blatantly biased against Israel that _several of its own judges remarked that the law wasn’t actually applied fully and the relevant facts weren’t allowed into evidence let alone considered_… and your response is something about paranoia and how your camp is being persecuted. No not my camp. I was responding to the comments Red was making about the whining coming from your camp about how the whole world is against Israel because the whole world is anti-semetic. One theory on why the whole world is anti-semitic (or at least feels comfortable being anti-semetic is because the world is not used to Jews being in a role other than the victim. > [@](#): > > Also known as “racism”, but moving along… Or a slip considering how much the Jewish lobby bleeds into the Israeli lobby. I have no reason to believe that the typical Jewish politician has any more loyalty to Israel than Patrick Moynihan had to Ireland. But the lobbyists are a different matter and they exert influence. I think there are some political figures (particularly neocons like Doug Feith) who I do suspect of having dual loyalties, as an aside, the suspects are not all Jewish. > [@](#): > > Read the article. There’s a difference between “Israel Lobby” and “Jewish Lobby”. It’s also interesting that Hagel jumps to the same tired old failure of a defense that many anti-Israel partisans on the Dope do when caught out in a difference of opinion on proper policy; he alleges that people who disagree with him on American foreign policy must really want American lawmakers to put a foreign nation ahead of us. One might even say that it’s an allegation of putting Israel, hrm… First. How many anti-Israel Jewish lobbies are out there? To a greater or lesser extent, a lot of these Jewish lobbies identify very closely to Israel. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Agreed. I just knew he was fully awesome. I thought the folks trying to undermine Lugar were Republicans, partly to show everyone what happens to RINOs and partly to try to undermine Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/662 "2012-12-22T08:03:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I thought the folks trying to undermine Lugar were Republicans, partly to show everyone what happens to RINOs and partly to try to undermine Obama. I think I am missing some context to your comment. If you feel like it when you get a chance perhaps you could fill me in. Are you cluing me in to a pattern of Republican behavior, with their behavior toward Hagel and Lugar as examples? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/663 "2012-12-22T16:20:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think the most obvious interpretation of Tom’s statement was that the only place in the US where it’s “common” to refer to AIPAC as “the Jewish Lobby” is on Stormfront. That’s the same thing as implying that **ElvisL1ves** is a neo-Nazi, If the only people who refer to “the Jewish lobby” are the neo-Nazis on Stormfront, and **ElvisL1ves** refers to “the Jewish lobby”, and would only be able to produce a cite from Stormfront, then it follows that ElvisL1ves must be a neo-Nazi on Stormfront. QED. It never helps to Godwinize a thread, especially from a mod. And especially (as \*\*ElvisL1ves \*\*noticed) immediately following an official Mod Note. **tomndebb** is using his mod position to try to intimidate. Which is unfortunate. **tomndebb** cannot seem to debate without accusing those who disagree of bad faith. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/664 "2012-12-22T16:29:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The USA is frantically trying to prevent a UN vote on Palestinian statehood. > My question: what really bad stuff will happen if such a vote is cast? > The Israelis have said that they will not allow it (and they control the area). > Nobody wants to assist such a state (against the opposition of Israel). > So, suppose the Palestinians are acknowledged to be a country-they have no industry, no standing, no foreign embassies, and no income (apart from foreign aid). > So they can call themselves whatever they wish (perhaps, the “United States of Occupied Palestine”?) > What difference would it make? > Is it all jst words-a tempest in a tea pot? The main reason why they shouldn’t is because it isn’t a state. If they are going to declare Palestine a state how about the Assyrian Empire, or the Kingdom of Gondor? It makes a mockery of the UN if they admit entities that aren’t actually sovereign states, but simply want to be. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/665 "2012-12-22T16:51:15Z")
A sovereign state, strictly speaking, is any entity that other sovereign states recognize as one ; no more and no less. At this point, 68% of UN member states do recognize Palestine as a sovereign state. I do not have the voting breakdown regarding the Kingdom of Gondor on hand, but I would assume it’s a little below that. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/666 "2012-12-22T16:58:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > A sovereign state, strictly speaking, is any entity that other sovereign states recognize as one ; no more and no less. At this point, 68% of UN member states do recognize Palestine as a sovereign state. > I do not have the voting breakdown regarding the Kingdom of Gondor on hand, but I would assume it’s a little below that. On the other hand, making Palestine into an officially recognised sovereign state would end the conflict there, since presumably they’d have to regard themselves as sovereign to qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/667 "2012-12-22T17:40:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > A sovereign state, strictly speaking, is any entity that other sovereign states recognize as one ; no more and no less. I disagree with that; sovereignty is not a popularity contest. If a majority of the world decided not to recognized my country’s sovereignty (as many of them already fail to do), would that mean that it doesn’t exist? Of course it wouldn’t. That’s because sovereignty is descriptive, not prescriptive. If a state holds land it’s a sovereign state, and the rest of the world be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/668 "2012-12-22T18:07:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I disagree with that; sovereignty is not a popularity contest. If a majority of the world decided not to recognized my country’s sovereignty (as many of them already fail to do), would that mean that it doesn’t exist? Of course it wouldn’t. Officially speaking, and realpolitik speaking, yes it would. Take Somaliland for example: it “exists”, it has an autonomous administration, it holds land (or claims to, anyway), they even have a flag (:)). But nobody else wants to recognize the sovereignty of Somaliland, nor is interested in guaranteeing it. So, on paper, it isn’t a “real” state. Besides, “Palestine” (as in, people self-identifying as Palestinians) holds land, so that particular criteria for statehood would be met regardless, wouldn’t it ? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/669 "2012-12-22T18:18:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > A sovereign state, strictly speaking, is any entity that other sovereign states recognize as one ; no more and no less. Do you happen to have a cite for this rather circular definition? ---
**Author:** ![Sleeping\_Synapse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Sleeping\_Synapse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeping_Synapse)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/670 "2012-12-23T01:16:19Z")
[Interesting…](http://united4justice.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/einstein-letter-to-shepard-rifkin-on-isareli-terrorists/) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/671 "2012-12-23T02:09:53Z")
> [@Sleeping\_Synapse](#): > > [Interesting…](http://united4justice.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/einstein-letter-to-shepard-rifkin-on-isareli-terrorists/) If you’re going to continue making anti-Semitic insinuations about how “the Jew” is naturally prone “to terrorism” I’d recommend finding better sources than what looks like an Islamist blog from Pakistan. Did you actually read the article? I ask because the blogger you’re using as your cite is so ignorant of the Palestine/Israel conflict that he thinks the Deir Yassin massacre was carried out by the Stern Gang when anyone with an even cursory knowledge knows that the leaders and most of the guerillas/terrorists who carried out the massacre were members of the Irgun. The fact that you actually cited this does little to inspire confidence in your own knowledge or understanding of the conflict which has supposedly convince you that “the Jew” is by nature “a terrorist”. There are only three explanations. A)You didn’t read the blog post. B)You read it but didn’t care that it’s grossly factually inaccurate. C)You honestly didn’t know the Irgun, not Lehi, was the main group behind the massacre. So, which of those three is it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/672 "2012-12-23T03:41:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes he did. > > **ElvisL1ves** is hardly my favorite poster, but saying that someone would post cites from a neo-Nazi site is, indeed, an insinuation that he is a neo-Nazi. There is really no other reasonable interpretation. No, I did not make the claim that you re attributing to me. Your logic is as poor as your grasp of what has been posted. **ElvisL1ves** responded in the affirmative to a question as to whether it was “common” to refer to the AIPAC as the “Jewish” lobby. (_So, we are talking about a large group of people’s use of a word, not whether **ElvisL1ves** uses the word._) He further noted that it was so common that he did not have to provide citations to support his assertion. (_Again, the assertion has to do with the actions of some unidentified large group of people, not of **ElvisL1ves**._) I then pointed out that it would be problematic to provide citations since they would mostly tie back to a notorious, anti-semitic web site. (_Once more, we are talking about other people who are not even members of this board, much less the specific member, **ElvisL1ves**._) Nothing in that exchange suggests that **ElvisL1ves** is a member of that other web site or even that he has any regular contact with it, such as reading it. It says ONLY that IF he sought out citations for his claim, that the bulk of such citations would have to be taken from that and similar sites. The citations might be found through Google or any number of other methods, but they hardly require that **ElvisL1ves** be in any way connected to that site or any other. > [@Shodan](#): > > Which is unfortunate. There was some discussion, either earlier in this thread, or in another, of how people cannot criticize Israel without being accused of being anti-Semitic. Here we see a pretty clear example of that. No. We see another example of you wading into a thread to make one more silly claim in order to make a personal attack on me. I made no claim that anyone who attacked Israel was anti-semitic. I noted that a very specific anti-semitic phrase was more likely to appear on an anti-semitic site. I have no idea why ElvisL1ves would think that that particular anti-semitic phrase was in widespread use, and I have offered no opinion on that topic. I just noted that his claim–whatever its motivation–was not supportable. That you would immediately take the view that I had accused **ElvisL1ves** of being a member or supporter of that particular website is ludicrous. That you further claim that it is the only reasonable explanation for that exchange would seem to indicate that you “_cannot seem to debate without accusing those who disagree of bad faith_.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/673 "2012-12-23T05:10:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …Beyond that, since Hagel has a record of making bigoted intemperate remarks, why is it hard to believe that he was making such remarks again. > > \ > > ..is making bigoted comments, or would you still argue that gay rights groups shouldn’t protest this because Hagel is “awesome” and we should nominate him to stick it to “the neocons”? > > Incidentally, for the record I don’t think Hagel is an anti-Semite, but I think it’s more accurate to say he makes extremely stupid comments about Jews, but we should assume he’s a homophobic bigot until he produces compelling evidence that he’s not. [**“My comments 14 years ago in 1998 were insensitive,” said Hagel. “They do not reflect my views or the totality of my public record, and I apologize to Ambassador Hormel and any LGBT Americans who may question my commitment to their civil rights. I am fully supportive of ‘open service’ and committed to LGBT military families.”**](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57560609-10391739/chuck-hagel-apologizes-for-1998-gay-slur/) Sherlock, you are certainly not. Then again, surely you know what they say about “assuming.” Have a great day. Though I won’t assume you will… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/674 "2012-12-23T05:22:49Z")
**Tom** , you are certainly great at posting a whole lot of nothing to defend an indefensible comment. Unless you propose we parse head-side-up & looking sidewards. As your supporters/defenders can & obviously do. Meanwhile, **Elvis** , **Shodan** & myslef, hard as you may find it to believe, can read and parse just fine w/out turning into pretzels. But yeah, you certainly rule the roost. Congrats. Must be an awesome feeling. Or something… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/675 "2012-12-23T05:36:37Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**“My comments 14 years ago in 1998 were insensitive,” said Hagel. “They do not reflect my views or the totality of my public record, and I apologize to Ambassador Hormel and any LGBT Americans who may question my commitment to their civil rights. I am fully supportive of ‘open service’ and committed to LGBT military families.”**](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57560609-10391739/chuck-hagel-apologizes-for-1998-gay-slur/) > > Sherlock, you are certainly not. Then again, surely you know what they say about “assuming.” > > Have a great day. Though I won’t assume you will… Of course, the apology and quote you’re citing came after I’d made my post. I’m sorry that I’m not clairvoyant. Beyond that, the comment you’re referring to was already noted in post 658 by myself. Next time, I’d recommend reading the thread. It would help you avoid looking exceptionally stupid. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/676 "2012-12-23T06:33:21Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **Tom** , you are certainly great at posting a whole lot of nothing to defend an indefensible comment. Unless you propose we parse head-side-up & looking sidewards. As your supporters/defenders can & obviously do. Meanwhile, **Elvis** , **Shodan** & myslef, hard as you may find it to believe, can read and parse just fine w/out turning into pretzels. > > But yeah, you certainly rule the roost. > > Congrats. Must be an awesome feeling. Or something… No. But it is amusing watching you turn yourself into a pretzel to proclaim that you are a straight line. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/677 "2012-12-23T06:34:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It would help you avoid looking exceptionally stupid. Knock it off or take it to The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/678 "2012-12-23T07:11:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Knock it off or take it to The BBQ Pit. > > [/Moderating] I’m a bit confused by this. What did I say that crossed the line? He made a rather blatant, and rather ignorant personal attack on me which you have not warned him for. I suggested he should be pay more attention and read the posts on the thread and he wouldn’t make such jaw-droppingly foolish mistakes as not noticing that quotes he was triumphantly citing came after criticisms I’d offered and that I’d already noted them. Particularly when we’re talking about a person who freely admits that he holds Jews to dramatically different standards, has extremely homophobic opinions, and is an anti-semite who thinks Jews can’t be trusted? Please explain why his rather inept attack on men is considered kosher while my response is considered to be crossing a line. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/679 "2012-12-23T07:23:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Knock it off or take it to The BBQ Pit. > > [/Moderating] Again, I’ll confess to being shocked since he specifically accused me of being stupid, while I merely pointed out that his extremely stupid argument made him look stupid warranted a mod note to me. Would you mind explaining what I said was more noxious and in violation of board rules than what he said about me? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/680 "2012-12-23T07:32:31Z")
I admit that I missed his less than clever play on the word “assume,” but your blatant use of the word “stupid” was more difficult to ignore. You have employed the word “stupid” about a dozen times in the last couple of days while he has made one ironic reference to “Sherlock.” You have now used your objection to my Modding to launch several more insults. You are really not helping your cause. **Both** of you need to back off on the personal comments or take it to The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ETA: Take further comments to ATMB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=35)