# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/681 "2012-12-23T13:51:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. Yes. > [@](#): > > We see another example of you wading into a thread to make one more silly claim in order to make a personal attack on me. No one made any personal attacks on you. If anyone had, you would have your mod hat on and issuing warnings. Since that is not happening, you must not be telling the truth. You took a cheap shot and are issuing the usual line of blather trying to define it away. Your logic and consistency are not poor; they are non-existent. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/682 "2012-12-23T17:04:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes.No one made any personal attacks on you. If anyone had, you would have your mod hat on and issuing warnings. Since that is not happening, you must not be telling the truth. > > You took a cheap shot and are issuing the usual line of blather trying to define it away. > > Your logic and consistency are not poor; they are non-existent. Another demonstration of failed attempts at logic. You wandered into the thread to make claims about my person, drawing inferences from my statements that are not supported by facts. That would qualify as an attack on my person. As to employing my Mod powers to respond to attacks; I pretty much never do. I figure putting up with cheap shots is part of the job and I do not respond to such nonsense by invoking my mad Mod powers. So, you have again created a claim that is not supported by facts in order to attack me. If you need to pursue this silliness, take it to ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/683 "2012-12-23T19:21:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes.No one made any personal attacks on you. If anyone had, you would have your mod hat on and issuing warnings. Since that is not happening, you must not be telling the truth. > > You took a cheap shot and are issuing the usual line of blather trying to define it away. > > Your logic and consistency are not poor; they are non-existent. > > Regards, > Shodan > [@](#): > > When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. When the law is on your side, argue the law. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, call your opponent an anti-Semite. > > (Justin Logan - director of foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute.) No more be said. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/684 "2012-12-23T19:32:00Z")
[**The art of the smear**](http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/12/17/the_art_of_the_smear) > [@](#): > > I suppose I could be flattered that William Kristol is trying to use my endorsement to derail Senator Chuck Hagel’s candidacy to be the next secretary of defense. But in fact I’m disgusted, because Kristol’s predictable hatchet job depends on the false charge that my co-author John Mearsheimer and I are “Israel-haters.” It is, to be blunt, a shameful lie. It is also a revealing glimpse into how Kristol thinks and operates. > > Here’s Kristol’s problem: Hagel is a decorated Vietnam veteran who was wounded twice in the service of his country. Instead of helping cause wars from the sidelines like Bill does, Hagel fought with bravery on the battlefield. He’s also a Republican with ample experience in national security and intelligence matters whose judgment President Obama respects. Hagel has been quite supportive of Israel throughout his public career, and his views on many Middle East topics are similar to those of prominent Israeli officials. But he hasn’t been as slavishly devoted to Israel as fanatics like Kristol would like, and he’s skeptical about the merits of a war with Iran (as are many Israeli experts). Hagel also said openly he “was a United States senator, not an Israeli senator,” and that his primary responsibility is to serve the American national interest, not Israel’s. This statement would disqualify him were he in the running to be Israel’s minister of defense, but it is precisely what you’d expect a loyal American to say. > > \ > > See how it works? Someone who has previously been falsely smeared as anti-Israel thinks Hagel would be a good choice, so Hagel must be a nasty piece of work too. Of course, the charges against me are equally baseless – and I’ll bet Kristol knows that quite well – but factual accuracy is not his concern. The sad fact is that if someone displays the slightest degree of independent thought on the subject of U.S.-Israel relations, they’ll get falsely smeared. And then if that person says anything favorable about anyone else, that statement will be used to smear the others too. The goal, of course, is to silence or marginalize anyone who doesn’t fully support the current “special relationship” and prevent a full and open debate about its merits. > > \ > > But what this incident really reveals is how desperate Kristol & Co. are becoming. Having conceived, cheer-led, and then bungled the disastrous Iraq war, their credentials as foreign policy “experts” are forever tarnished. They’ve used the “anti-Semitism/Israel-hater” charge so often and so inaccurately that it is losing its power to silence or deter, and defending the “special relationship” will be more and more difficult as Israel drifts rightward and hopes for a two-state solution fade into oblivion… Obviously, truth won’t make a dent into delusion. But there it is. And here in bucketfuls – the latter that is. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/685 "2012-12-23T19:36:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …It would help you avoid looking exceptionally stupid. Merry X-mas, bud. Santa’s sending you a mirror. Best always to you and all of your loved ones. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/686 "2012-12-23T22:00:10Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > No more be said. I think that where you guys are seeing persecution by claiming a poster is an anti-Semite to silence him, the rest if us are seeing that depiction of what **tomndebb** said as totally unfounded - and frankly, if you logically examine the quotes in question, I think we have by far the better case. I think it doesn’t help your arguments to pursue this - it just makes you guys look rather paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/687 "2012-12-23T23:09:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah I know what AIPAC stands for. The ADL might be a Jewish organization but it is also a fairly pro-Israel organization. The web of pro-Israel lobbying organizations in DC melds almost seamlessly into the Jewish lobby. There is very little controversy that the Israel/Jewish lobby exerts a lot of influence in DC. So do a lot of other interests like the gun lobby, the insurance lobby, real estate lobby, etc., and like these other lobbies, people wonder if this outsized influence is in the best interests of the United States. > > No not my camp. I was responding to the comments Red was making about the whining coming from your camp about how the whole world is against Israel because the whole world is anti-semetic. > > One theory on why the whole world is anti-semitic (or at least feels comfortable being anti-semetic is because the world is not used to Jews being in a role other than the victim. > > Or a slip considering how much the Jewish lobby bleeds into the Israeli lobby. I have no reason to believe that the typical Jewish politician has any more loyalty to Israel than Patrick Moynihan had to Ireland. But the lobbyists are a different matter and they exert influence. I think there are some political figures (particularly neocons like Doug Feith) who I do suspect of having dual loyalties, as an aside, the suspects are not all Jewish. > > How many anti-Israel Jewish lobbies are out there? To a greater or lesser extent, a lot of these Jewish lobbies identify very closely to Israel. > > I thought the folks trying to undermine Lugar were Republicans, partly to show everyone what happens to RINOs and partly to try to undermine Obama. So, you think there is such a thing as “the Jewish lobby”. Ok, all lobbies have a President or Chairman. Please name the President or Chairman of “the Jewish lobby”. Also, accusing someone of “dual loyalty” is a really strong charge. Please tell me what Doug Feith did which would make you think that he had “dual loyalty”. Also, since you’re openly arguing that many Jewish Americans have “dual loyalty” then perhaps you could list some of them and what they’ve done or said that would lead you to believe the old anti-Semitic canard. Finally, since you also claim that there are many gentile political figures who are more loyal to Israel than the US, please name some of those political figures and what they’ve done or said that would lead you to make such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/688 "2012-12-23T23:20:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**The art of the smear**](http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/12/17/the_art_of_the_smear) > > Obviously, truth won’t make a dent into delusion. But there it is. And here in bucketfuls – the latter that is. Quoting someone who claims that the US government and media is controlled by Jews more loyal to Israel than the US doesn’t help your case. I will however agree that comparing Hagel, who merely made some stupid comments about Jews to either Walt or his partner is rather unfair. Truth be told, I think Hagel would probably make a fine Secretary of State, but in the US when you make insensitive comments about ethnic groups, even if you’re not a bigot, you’re going to come under criticism whether this is Spiro Agnew making a reference to a sleeping reporter as “a fat Jap” or Jesse Jackson making a joking reference to New York City as “Hymie town”. Obviously, this is dramatically less true of Muslims, Middle Easterners, and to a lesser extent, Hispanics. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/689 "2012-12-23T23:46:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, accusing someone of “dual loyalty” is a really strong charge. > > Please tell me what Doug Feith did which would make you think that he had “dual loyalty”. > > Also, since you’re openly arguing that many Jewish Americans have “dual loyalty” then perhaps you could list some of them and what they’ve done or said that would lead you to believe the old anti-Semitic canard. Example? Darn it, you are naive. Any Jewish-American who supports release of Jonathan Pollard or claims he was not given due process has not only “dual loyalty” but has a loyalty beyond that; that’s a loyalty to a foreign country even if it means hurting the country you live in. Also, just b/c you appended “anti-Semitic” meme and thus associated anyone who points to a dual-loyalty issue doesn’t really make it anti-Semitic; quite contrary, it devalues the term every time. You know who else has dual-loyalty? AIPAC has a dual loyalty. And they are very proud of it so, please. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/690 "2012-12-24T00:15:02Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Any Jewish-American who supports release of Jonathan Pollard or claims he was not given due process has not only “dual loyalty” but has a loyalty beyond that; that’s a loyalty to a foreign country even if it means hurting the country you live in.. Your comment makes little sense unless one is absurdly jingoistic. Jonathan Pollard is an American put in jail for selling secrets to a foreign country, namely Israel. He has been in jail for nearly 25 years and has spent more time in jail than just about any other American convicted of selling secrets to the Soviet Union or other countries who were declared enemies of the US. He has also spent more time in jail than most people convicted of either rape or murder and even many people guilty of multiple murders. Now, I don’t care about the man nor have I any desire to see him free, but I don’t see how anyone other than an absurd jingoist could claim that asking for early release for a convicted criminal could be seen as having “dual loyalty”. Are people who oppose the execution of murders or who call for the early release and/or parole guilty of “dual loyalty”? Were the people who defended the Rosenbergs or Alger Hiss guilty of “dual loyalty”? For that matter, you’re also claiming that people who claimed that Pollard’s trial was unfair are guilty of “dual loyalty”. Does that mean that people who regularly claim trials they believe were unfair were guilty of “dual loyalty”? For example, are people who claim that Sacco and Vanzetti didn’t get a fair trial guilty of “dual loyalty”? Finally, I’m a bit confused that you don’t claim that “Americans” who support Pollard’s release are guilty of “dual loyalty” but only claim that “Jewish Americans” who do so are guilty of anti-Semitism. Why is that? Thanks in advance for your answers. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/691 "2012-12-24T00:18:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …I think Hagel would probably make a fine Secretary of State, … Secretary of Defense. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/692 "2012-12-24T00:24:56Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Secretary of Defense. D’oh! I hate having brain farts. Thanks for the correction. That said, I find his stance regarding Iran and the Middle East in general vastly preferable to current US policy. Truth be told, I think he might be better at State than at the Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/693 "2012-12-24T00:31:52Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Example? Darn it, you are naive. > > Any Jewish-American who supports release of Jonathan Pollard or claims he was not given due process has not only “dual loyalty” but has a loyalty beyond that; that’s a loyalty to a foreign country even if it means hurting the country you live in. > […] > You know who else has dual-loyalty? AIPAC has a dual loyalty. And they are very proud of it so, please. And this, of course, is how traditional thuggish anti-semitic attempts at bullying go. If you’re a Jew and you have the Wrong politics, the ones your Masters in your Host Nations don’t allow you? You’re a traitor. Disagree on simple matters of due process? You’re a traitor. Believe in different goals, values, but priorities or strategies for foreign policy? Traitors, the lot of those Yids. And amidst such naked, thuggish intimidation, we have the plaintive whine that oppressive, fictitious accusations of anti-semitism doth rain down. Newcomer, please elaborate on the connection or connections between the Mossad and 9/11. Use short, declarative sentences please. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/694 "2012-12-24T01:20:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And this, of course, is how traditional thuggish anti-semitic attempts at bullying go. Thank god you’re on the job to prevent thuggish bullying. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/695 "2012-12-24T01:40:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Also, since you’re openly arguing that many Jewish Americans have “dual loyalty” then perhaps you could list some of them and what they’ve done or said that would lead you to believe the old anti-Semitic canard. Straw man, poorly done. He said that a number of lobbyists appear to have dual loyalties and explicitly noted that many of those lobbyists are not Jewish. For you to then change his statement to indicate that “many Jewish Americans” demonstrate dual loyalty is not appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/696 "2012-12-24T01:52:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Straw man, poorly done. > > He said that a number of lobbyists appear to have dual loyalties and explicitly noted that many of those lobbyists are not Jewish. For you to then change his statement to indicate that “many Jewish Americans” demonstrate dual loyalty is not appropriate. In the post you are quoting part of, I noted that he said that there were many gentiles this was true of. Beyond that, what he said was “not all” of those whom he suspects of having “dual loyalty” were Jewish, which would certainly imply that most of those were Jewish. Beyond that, his post makes it clear that he thinks that many Jewish Americans have dual-loyalty. I’m merely asking him to name names. List some Jews whom he thinks have dual loyalty and list some gentiles whom he thinks are more loyal to Israel than the US. Also, since he says that he thinks Doug Feith is a traitor who can’t be trusted, or words to that effect, I’m asking him to explain why. Also, you’re wrong that he only claimed that “lobbyists” had “dual loyalty” but “political figures” as well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/697 "2012-12-24T01:58:04Z")
And you still managed to change all those different individuals with all sorts of separate qualified descriptions into a claim of “many Jewish Americans.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/698 "2012-12-24T02:13:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And you still managed to change all those different individuals with all sorts of separate qualified descriptions into a claim of “many Jewish Americans.” Because he clearly thinks that “many Jewish Americans” do have “dual loyalty”. Do you think that’s not what he believes? I’m not saying that as an insult and reasonably believe that he would agree with that. Why is that surprising in a post where he’s insisting that he thinks that “the Jewish lobby” actually does exist. He says “many political figures have dual loyalty and, as an aside, not all of them are Jews”. That clearly means he thinks that many Jewish Americans, and some gentile Americans have dual-loyalty? BTW, Damuri, please correct me if I’m wrong. Am I wrong in thinking you believe that many Jewish Americans do have dual loyalty? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/699 "2012-12-24T02:19:46Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Thank god you’re on the job to prevent thuggish bullying. I know, isn’t it just awful when those darned Dual Loyalty havin’ Jews don’t take it lying down? But don’t fret, Tony, we don’t need to prevent thuggish attempts at bullying Jews into political ‘acceptability’. See, we don’t need to because we still hold full citizenship and the worst that’s done is precisely a number of mostly anonymous online attempts to intimidate Jews. How many Jews do ya think newcomer’s managed to get to change their politics out of fear of his slanders? Is it more or less than the amount of evidence for his claim that the Mossad was somehow connected to 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/700 "2012-12-24T03:10:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Because he clearly thinks that “many Jewish Americans” do have “dual loyalty”. > > Do you think that’s not what he believes? I do not know what his exact beliefs are, but I find it counter-productive to ascribe any belief regarding “_many_ American Jews,” when the actual words posted could just as easily refer to “_some_ American Jews” or even “_a few_ American Jews.” It comes too close to an accusation of Jew-baiting or antisemitism to promote a good discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=36)