# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/721 "2012-12-25T02:14:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > . . . that Elvis has such warped, pathological, dangerously . . . ignorant views . . . . Elvis has such a diseased view of Jews . . . > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And your twisted, diseased non-reasoning for that? > . . . > And despite the fact that you want to rely on intimidation and slander, . . . . Way over the top, here. Dial it back–a lot. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/722 "2012-12-25T04:52:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I readily admit I have no idea what you are talking about. 😕 > … > There is no good reason to call AIPAC “the Jewish lobby”. It reeks of bad reasons. I think you know very well - he is simply trying to shortcut this BS on importance of distinction between something Jewish and something Israel. Like, if it was Jewish lobby then AIPAC’s meddling would be something to abhor but, since it is “only” Israeli lobby then it’s okay to meddle and subvert. Oh, man, I laugh when I read this as you are really convinced that the distinction you so feverishly insist on is worth a damn. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/723 "2012-12-25T04:57:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Way over the top, here. Dial it back–a lot. > > [/Moderating] You’re right of course. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/724 "2012-12-25T20:51:04Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I think you know very well - he is simply trying to shortcut this BS on importance of distinction between something Jewish and something Israel. No, I’m not. But nobody here seems especially stupid, and everybody here has missed my point after I’ve clarified it to the best of my ability, so I’m getting the uncomfortable feeling that I’m the one who’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/725 "2012-12-25T20:56:17Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > No, I’m not. > > But nobody here seems especially stupid, and everybody here has missed my point after I’ve clarified it to the best of my ability, so I’m getting the uncomfortable feeling that I’m the one who’s stupid. You’re not. The agenda of anyone who talks about “Jewish lobby” when referring to AIPAC is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/726 "2012-12-26T06:46:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re not. The agenda of anyone who talks about “Jewish lobby” when referring to AIPAC is pretty clear. What was Chuck Hagel’s agenda when he said Jewish Lobby? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/727 "2012-12-26T07:48:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re not. The agenda of anyone who talks about “Jewish lobby” when referring to AIPAC is pretty clear. Indeed it is, and pretty rational, too, despite the large number of American Jews (I have met many) who approve of AIPAC’s agenda no more then Bin Laden did. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/728 "2012-12-26T08:44:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Indeed it is, and pretty rational, too, despite the large number of American Jews (I have met many) who approve of AIPAC’s agenda no more then Bin Laden did. Yes. Hell, some of your best friends are Jews. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/729 "2012-12-26T08:45:46Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > What was Chuck Hagel’s agenda when he said Jewish Lobby? Promoting an idea of Jews’ double loyalty. Pretty clear agenda. Glad he’s not going to be the next SecDef. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/730 "2012-12-26T15:05:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Promoting an idea of Jews’ double loyalty. Pretty clear agenda. Glad he’s not going to be the next SecDef. Thanks for demonstrating what a lot of people say doesn’t exist. They said it for pages even. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/731 "2012-12-26T15:24:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Indeed it is, and pretty rational, too, despite the large number of American Jews (I have met many) who approve of AIPAC’s agenda no more then Bin Laden did. Considering the fact that it’s not even a Jewish organization why is it “pretty rational”? Would it be “pretty rational” to refer to New York City as “Jew York City”? BTW, earlier when asked which model for the “one-state solution” you’d favor, the American or Lebanese model you said you’d favor “the Israeli model”. You then rather bizarrely claimed that this new Knesset would have members of both Hamas and Hezbollah sitting in it. Please explain how in this one state, using “the Israeli model” Hamas and Hezbollah would be able to put members up for election. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/732 "2012-12-26T15:44:57Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I think you know very well - he is simply trying to shortcut this BS on importance of distinction between something Jewish and something Israel. Like, if it was Jewish lobby then AIPAC’s meddling would be something to abhor but, since it is “only” Israeli lobby then it’s okay to meddle and subvert. > > Oh, man, I laugh when I read this as you are really convinced that the distinction you so feverishly insist on is worth a damn. Once again, you are completely missing the point. Here’s a clue - the issue has absolutely nothing to do with whether one “abhors” AIPAC’s lobbying. It is interesting that you don’t think the distinction between Israeli and Jew is “worth a damn”. I see that **TonySinclair** understands that it does. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/733 "2012-12-26T15:46:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Indeed it is, and pretty rational, too, despite the large number of American Jews (I have met many) who approve of AIPAC’s agenda no more then Bin Laden did. I see that you and **newcomer** share this in common. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/734 "2012-12-26T17:09:05Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Like, if it was Jewish lobby then AIPAC’s meddling would be something to abhor but, since it is “only” Israeli lobby then it’s okay to meddle and subvert. Do you hate all such lobbying groups, or AIPAC in particular? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/735 "2012-12-26T17:16:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you hate all such lobbying groups, or AIPAC in particular? Agreed. I’m not a fan of the NRA, but I fail to see how they “meddle and subvert” more than the NRA, the AARP, the Sierra Club and numerous other groups who lobby for their own particular causes. What all those groups are is collections of Americsn citizens trying to pressure elected officials to vote a certain way. That’s what representative democracy is about. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/736 "2012-12-26T18:53:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. I’m not a fan of the NRA, but I fail to see how they “meddle and subvert” more than the NRA, the AARP, the Sierra Club and numerous other groups who lobby for their own particular causes. Those organizations all “meddle and subvert” too (even the Sierra Club, if you’re looking at matters from the standpoint of the Wall St. Journal and Heritage Foundation). It is always easier for a certainly mentality to demonize a lobbying group identified with opposing views, than it is to acknowledge that one’s efforts are failing because they are unpopular and/or because one is too disorganized or lazy to create a lobbying group of equal or greater power. And it’s incredibly easier than taking a hard look at one’s beliefs, recognizing flaws and changing those views to make them more acceptable to fellow Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/737 "2012-12-26T18:57:47Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And it’s incredibly easier than taking a hard look at one’s beliefs, recognizing flaws and changing those views to make them more acceptable to fellow Americans. “We have met the enemy, and he is us”. I agree that blaming a lobbying group’s “meddling” and “subversion” for unpopular policies reveals a rather poor grasp on how democracy works. As was noted, Americans support Israel, so the American government supports Israel. Lobbying groups are just a means for that support to be conveyed and concentrated. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/738 "2012-12-26T18:58:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. I’m not a fan of the NRA, but I fail to see how they “meddle and subvert” more than the NRA, the AARP, the Sierra Club and numerous other groups who lobby for their own particular causes. > > What all those groups are is collections of Americsn citizens trying to pressure elected officials to vote a certain way. That’s what representative democracy is about. Lets not be naive and think that just because its legal, there’s no problems with it. From what I see, the problem arises when a well-funded and/or influential lobbying group made up of a tiny minority dominates the conversation because there is not enough organized opposition. The NRA, as it has been repeated elsewhere, only makes up a few million members out of an estimated hundred million plus gun owners in the US. Yet it is to them that we owe much of what is and isn’t discussed about guns in public to AIPAC represents another vocal group, but I’d hardly think that what they lobby for represents the US as a whole rather than simply their group. Its not illegal, of course, and that’s not the argument. What is the argument is that they are small, powerful, and vocal and seems to drown out meaningful opposition. Over in Israel and Palestine, I have felt that some of what is done by the Israeli side crosses into extremism and war crimes, but we hardly ever hear that in the US media because our politicians are afraid of sounding like they’re anti-Israel and any public members who speak out get attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/739 "2012-12-26T19:00:26Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Lets not be naive and think that just because its legal, there’s no problems with it. From what I see, the problem arises when a well-funded and/or influential lobbying group made up of a tiny minority dominates the conversation because there is not enough organized opposition. The obvious question, then, is why there isn’t enough organized opposition. Why might that be, in the case of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/740 "2012-12-26T19:02:27Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Over in Israel and Palestine, I have felt that some of what is done by the Israeli side crosses into extremism and war crimes, but we hardly ever hear that in the US media because our politicians are afraid of sounding like they’re anti-Israel and any public members who speak out get attacked. Please name two Israeli war crimes which you feel were hardly reported at all in the U.S. media. Please state the specifics of what exactly was done wrong by Israel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=38)