# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/61 "2011-09-16T16:25:04Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > For US Dopers - how does it feel to be the only country in the World against Palestinian pursuit of statehood? Denmark has been opposed. At least until yesterday when we got the goddamn commies in power. I’m all for it though. (The Pali-state that is. Not the goddamn heathen commies) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/62 "2011-09-16T16:53:40Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > For US Dopers - how does it feel to be the only country in the World against Palestinian pursuit of statehood? I highly doubt that the US is the only country, but either way it feels pretty good. Why? Because the group known as “Palestinians” don’t actually want a state. What they want is for there not to be a Jewish state. If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would have accepted the 1947 U.N. partition plan which set up an Arab state on the West Bank, Gaza, and more. Instead, they rejected that plan and went to war against the Jews. If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would have pushed for one before 1967 when the West Bank and Gaza were under Arab control. Instead, they prepared for war against Jewish Israel. If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would offer citizenship to Palestinian Arabs everywhere, just like Israel offered citizenship to Jews everywhere. Instead, they have announced that they will deny citizenship even to Arabs living in refugee camps on the West Bank. Right now there are Arabs living in refugee camps in Jordan; descendants of Arabs who fled Gaza in 1967. There aren’t any Jews stopping those Arabs from “returning” to Gaza. And yet they don’t. In context, it’s pretty clear that the main goal is to undermine Jewish Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/63 "2011-09-16T17:40:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I highly doubt that the US is the only country, but either way it feels pretty good. > > Why? Because the group known as “Palestinians” don’t actually want a state. What they want is for there not to be a Jewish state. > > If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would have accepted the 1947 U.N. partition plan which set up an Arab state on the West Bank, Gaza, and more. Right, because these Palestinians are exactly the same people who rejected the 1947 plan! Well, except that all of those people are dead. :rolleyes: Why do you support Jim Crow laws? You’re an American, so you must be in favor, since they existed. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/64 "2011-09-16T18:06:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I disagree with you about the legalities, but let me ask you this: > > If a person living in State X is there because he is descended from someone who was transferred illegally to State X, he has no legal right to stay there? They’re illegally there in contravention of human rights law on what basis do they become legal?😕 I do not think those Israeli born in the WB have the right to be there. They’re citizens of Israel, they were born in the WB as a result of a racist and illegal policy, they are not integrated with the population of the WB. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/65 "2011-09-16T18:15:22Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Why? Because the group known as “Palestinians” don’t actually want a state. What they want is for there not to be a Jewish state. > > If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would have accepted the 1947 U.N. partition plan which set up an Arab state on the West Bank, Gaza, and more. Instead, they rejected that plan and went to war against the Jews. > > If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would have pushed for one before 1967 when the West Bank and Gaza were under Arab control. Instead, they prepared for war against Jewish Israel. > > If they really wanted a Palestinian state, they would offer citizenship to Palestinian Arabs everywhere, just like Israel offered citizenship to Jews everywhere. Instead, they have announced that they will deny citizenship even to Arabs living in refugee camps on the West Bank. > > Right now there are Arabs living in refugee camps in Jordan; descendants of Arabs who fled Gaza in 1967. There aren’t any Jews stopping those Arabs from “returning” to Gaza. And yet they don’t. > > In context, it’s pretty clear that the main goal is to undermine Jewish Israel. While all the reasons you mention above are easily dismissed by anyone remotely interested in the conflict, all of them, in summary, have nothing to do with you. When I asked for how you feel I was not inviting a sounding board of standard meme originated and propagated by state of Israel and Jewish lobby in US. When I asked how you feel, I meant as someone who is expected not to be so myopic and vengeful. How do you feel was more along the lines of how US foreign policy is not based on a careful examination and cooperation with major allies but rather sits in stark contrast with it and goes with absolutely zero voice of internal opposition. How you feel meant what is it to you to hold such a strong and aggressive tone toward the plight of Palestinians especially generations born after 1967 as if you really can relate to the conflict and have a deeper understanding beyond talking points you are mirroring. But, thanks for you input anyways. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/66 "2011-09-16T18:27:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Right, because these Palestinians are exactly the same people who rejected the 1947 plan! I haven’t seen much evidence that their general attitude (as a group) has changed. Just a few days ago it was announced that a Palestinian State would not grant citizenship to Palestinian Arabs, even those who are currently living in “refugee camps” on the West Bank. > [@](#): > > Why do you support Jim Crow laws? You’re an American, so you must be in favor, since they existed. I would say that Americans as a group oppose Jim Crow laws. This is evidenced by the fact that those laws have been repealed or stricken down by the courts and replaced by laws which forbid discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/67 "2011-09-16T18:32:38Z")
Israel shelling a sovereign nation will certainly raise more international eyebrows, but I doubt this sovereign nation can or wants to reign in it’s complicit role in terrorism. If Palestine does become a country will it be eligible for UN Peacekeepers? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/68 "2011-09-16T18:32:40Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > They’re illegally there in contravention of human rights law on what basis do they become legal?😕 It seems to me that there is a distinction between the (allegedly) illegal acts of a State and the status of the persons affected by those acts. So for example millions of ethnic Germans were expelled from Czechoslovakia after World War II and most of their descendants are living in Germany. Would anyone say that those descendants are in Germany illegally? That they have no legitimate claim to live in Germany? And that this illegal status will be passed on to their children forever? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/69 "2011-09-16T18:45:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > While all the reasons you mention above are easily dismissed by anyone remotely interested in the conflict, all of them, in summary, have nothing to do with you. Why not? I care about the conflict. Anyway, why do you care about the conflict? If you are in Canada, then what does it have to do with you? > [@](#): > > When I asked for how you feel I was not inviting a sounding board of standard meme originated and propagated by state of Israel and Jewish lobby in US. Meme or not, my argument has merit. If the Arabs wanted a Palestinian State for constructive purposes only, I would feel bad if the US went against them. > [@](#): > > When I asked how you feel, I meant as someone who is expected not to be so myopic and vengeful. No need for personal attacks. You may not like my answer, but there it is. > [@](#): > > How do you feel was more along the lines of how US foreign policy is not based on a careful examination and cooperation with major allies but rather sits in stark contrast with it and goes with absolutely zero voice of internal opposition. As noted, I think the US is not alone in this. But even if we were alone, I would prefer that we were on this side of the debate. > [@](#): > > How you feel meant what is it to you to hold such a strong and aggressive tone toward the plight of Palestinians especially generations born after 1967 The “plight of the Palestinians” could be fixed in large part if a hypothetical Palestinian State announced that it would accept Palestinian Arabs from all over the world, just like Israel has accepted Jews. If the Palestinian Statehood movement took such a position, my feelings would be a lot more ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/70 "2011-09-16T20:13:08Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It seems to me that there is a distinction between the (allegedly) illegal acts of a State and the status of the persons affected by those acts. > > So for example millions of ethnic Germans were expelled from Czechoslovakia after World War II and most of their descendants are living in Germany. Would anyone say that those descendants are in Germany illegally? That they have no legitimate claim to live in Germany? And that this illegal status will be passed on to their children forever? Illegal is a matter of law, in this case the International Court has ruled that the settlers are in the West Bank illegally. Take note the settlers including the ones born there are citizens of Israel, the only country they automatically have the legal right to reside in is Israel. I don’t know why you would bring up ethnic Germans who were expelled from Eastern Europe when discussing the legal status of the settlers They (the rthnic Germans) and their descents clearly have legal right to reside in Germany as legal citizens of Germany. And let me make it clear it’s not just a matter of legalities either, I can’t see how anyone can claim that these settlers have any sort of right to be where they are. And let us be even clearer this whole avenue of discussion is a red herring; thoguh the settlement policy has been around for years due recent rapid expansion, most of the settlers were not born in the WB and a large proportion the ones that were born there are chidlren who will clearly have to leave with their parents even if they were to be given the option to reside in the WB by virtue of their birth. It seems to me that if a settler did wish to live in the WB as part of a furute state, there best option would be to stop opposing a Palestinian state, stop anatgonising the Palestinians, ask for Palestinian citizenship under the PLO charter (or should that be PNC, I cannot remember. Not all would be eligble though) and thrown their lot in with the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/71 "2011-09-16T20:18:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The “plight of the Palestinians” could be fixed in large part if a hypothetical Palestinian State announced that it would accept Palestinian Arabs from all over the world, just like Israel has accepted Jews. If the Palestinian Statehood movement took such a position, my feelings would be a lot more ambiguous. I don’t understand this, there’s never been any suggestion that a future Palestinian state wouldn’t accept members of the Palestinian diaspora. Obviously they would prefer that could move back to the homes in Israel they were expelled from. Obviously there’s practical implications intaking back the 2.4 million or so Palestinians living in say Jordan and there’s no reason that the founding of a Palestinian state should prejudice the rights of the Arab Israelis to live where they are currently. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/72 "2011-09-16T20:37:21Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > I don’t know why you would bring up ethnic Germans who were expelled from Eastern Europe when discussing the legal status of the settlers Because I want to show that the principle you are asserting doesn’t make any sense. You are assuming and asserting that if a State violates international law by transferring somebody illegally, it follows that the person’s descendants have no legal right to remain in the transferee territory. > [@](#): > > They (the rthnic Germans) and their descents clearly have legal right to reside in Germany as legal citizens of Germany. According to what law? Anyway, it’s a yes or no question: Are you claiming that if Person X is illegally transferred to State Y, then his descendants have no legal right to stay in State Y? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/73 "2011-09-16T20:42:28Z")
> [@These are my own pants](#): > > I don’t understand this, there’s never been any suggestion that a future Palestinian state wouldn’t accept members of the Palestinian diaspora. Of course there has, and you would be well aware of this if the media coverage of the situation weren’t so anti-Israel. Here is an excerpt from a newspaper article from yesterday: > [@](#): > > BEIRUT: Palestinian refugees will not become citizens of a new Palestinian state, according to Palestine’s ambassador to Lebanon. > > From behind a desk topped by a miniature model of Palestine’s hoped-for blue United Nations chair, Ambassador Abdullah Abdullah spoke to The Daily Star Wednesday about Palestine’s upcoming bid for U.N. statehood. > > The ambassador unequivocally says that Palestinian refugees would not become citizens of the sought for U.N.-recognized Palestinian state, an issue that has been much discussed. “They are Palestinians, that’s their identity,” he says. “But … they are not automatically citizens.” > > This would not only apply to refugees in countries such as Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan or the other 132 countries where Abdullah says Palestinians reside. Abdullah said that “even Palestinian refugees who are living in [refugee camps] inside the [Palestinian] state, they are still refugees. They will not be considered citizens.” > > Abdullah said that the new Palestinian state would “absolutely not” be issuing Palestinian passports to refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/74 "2011-09-16T21:24:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Right, because these Palestinians are exactly the same people who rejected the 1947 plan! Well, except that all of those people are dead. :rolleyes: Ever heard of a [poll](http://www.theisraelproject.org/atf/cf/%7B84dc5887-741e-4056-8d91-a389164bc94e%7D/2011-07_PALESTINIAN_SURVEY_FQ.PDF)\*? :dubious: Or perhaps Hamas, the group that the Palestinian people democratically elected in Gaza? Do you read the news? Finally, I think when one talks about “The Palestinians” in terms of diplomacy, he/she is talking about those in charge. \*Please see page 30. > [@These are my own pants](#): > > They’re illegally there in contravention of human rights law on what basis do they become legal?😕 > > I do not think those Israeli born in the WB have the right to be there. They’re citizens of Israel, they were born in the WB as a result of a racist and illegal policy, they are not integrated with the population of the WB. And how do you feel about the Arab immigrants -like Syrians- who came to Palestine illegally between 1930-1968? Why would Arafat, who was born in Egypt, have claim to Jerusalem? Why should he [have had] a greater claim than I? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/75 "2011-09-16T21:36:30Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Israel shelling a sovereign nation will certainly raise more international eyebrows, but I doubt this sovereign nation can or wants to reign in it’s complicit role in terrorism. > > If Palestine does become a country will it be eligible for UN Peacekeepers? This is the path I have also wondered about. What if the new Nation asked for UN Peacekeepers to help patrol the border and deal with terrorism. What if the new Nation wanted its ports unblocked for trade. Other nations might start making investments (the new China! Palestinian sweat shop labor instead of Chinese!). I don’t know how much the legal status of Palestine has impacted involvement by the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/76 "2011-09-16T23:34:41Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > This is the path I have also wondered about. What if the new Nation asked for UN Peacekeepers to help patrol the border and deal with terrorism. What if the new Nation wanted its ports unblocked for trade. Other nations might start making investments (the new China! Palestinian sweat shop labor instead of Chinese!). > > I don’t know how much the legal status of Palestine has impacted involvement by the UN. That’s why I’m all for a Palestinian state. Statehood forces a minimum amount of responsibility and accountability. If for instance you start to fire rocks across the border into a neighboring nation, then that would be an act of war. Israel and its allies should not try to oppose statehood, but work for it being generally accepted that it comes with these same set of general responsibilities that counts for all other nations as well. Which includes of course general religious freedom and that ethnic cleansing of resident Jews or Christians is a big no-no. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/77 "2011-09-16T23:36:17Z")
Upon reflection, I think (now) that a UN declaration of a Palestinian state would be the best possible thing for Netanhanyu. Consider this: -he now has a government that he can formally negotiate with -he can tell the settlers:“either move back into Israel or take your chances” -he can request UN peacekeepers to patrol the borders -if the Palestinian state collapses (and attacks Israel), he can unleash his forces and completely destroy the palestinians. No more rocket attcks ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/78 "2011-09-17T00:16:53Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > : > -he now has a government that he can formally negotiate with There are already folks whom in theory Netanyahu could negotiate with. The problems are that (1) the people he might negotiate with aren’t very serious about negotiating or making peace; and (2) the people he might negotiate with don’t have much power to make commitments which the world will expect to be honored. These problems will not go away in the event of statehood. > [@](#): > > -he can tell the settlers:“either move back into Israel or take your chances” He could do that right now anyway with a unilateral pullout. > [@](#): > > -he can request UN peacekeepers to patrol the borders I suppose, but what exactly would that accomplish? > [@](#): > > -if the Palestinian state collapses (and attacks Israel), he can unleash his forces and completely destroy the palestinians. No more rocket attcks In which case he would be no better off than he is right now. Except of course for more Leftist accusations of “war crimes.” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/79 "2011-09-17T00:29:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Statehood forces a minimum amount of responsibility and accountability. If for instance you start to fire rocks across the border into a neighboring nation, then that would be an act of war. Well what if you do it through proxy groups like Hezbollah? What if the state looks the other way as terrorist training camps are being operated within its borders? What if the state pulls a Cuba and invites hostile powers to set up military bases nearby? > [@](#): > > Which includes of course general religious freedom and that ethnic cleansing of resident Jews or Christians is a big no-no. Saudi Arabia is UN-recognized and from what I hear lacks religious freedom. Let’s see a few churches and synagogues in Mecca first, ok? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/80 "2011-09-17T15:37:38Z")
What I’d like to know is why Mr. Abbas referred to ‘the occupation’ as something that’s been going on for ‘63 years’ and acted as though Israel has been in the WB for that long. Does he mean to say that all of Israel is occupied territory? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=5)