# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/861 "2013-01-16T23:56:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. Doesn’t scan. Not only does that not fit the allusion, it is not I who has shaped an opinion based on fact free “heads I win - tails you lose” cherry-picking. Oh I know, “facts” are what you call your bias. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/862 "2013-01-17T00:01:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …I’ve defined undue influence as best as I can and it ultimately comes down to whether or not you think we have responded reasonably in opposition to almost the entirety of the rest of the world in defending an ally that keep behaving poorly and whether the reason for our response is due to the influence of outfits like AIPAC… Bingo! Yet someone else that “gets it” – another ‘Anti-Semite’ no doubt. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/863 "2013-01-17T00:11:30Z")
We all weep over your cruel persecution. If only your list of all the people in the US government whose names sounded Jewish to you was properly acted upon, and if the International Zionist Conspiracy to control the United States government and media on behalf of the Jewish state was squelched? Why, you might be free from such scurrilous accusations as that your arguments are anti-Semitic. Don’t worry though, you’re among friends here. We’re rooting for you in your quest to investigate people with Jewish sounding names in the US government. And I’m sure I speak for the Teeming Millions in general when I say that of course we all agree that your senseless persecution is all the more surreal because you have reasonably, and with scrupulously well cited and supported statistical, political and demographic arguments, criticized certain Israeli policies that you wish to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/864 "2013-01-17T00:24:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. Doesn’t scan. Not only does that not fit the allusion, it is not I who has shaped an opinion based on fact free “heads I win - tails you lose” cherry-picking. BTW, I like it more when you think your insults are snide. Back to the chalkboard – though I doubt it’ll help you. Way too transparent. Then again you may just be “impaired” by sleep or otherwise. Right? :rolleyes: Big Man you are under your Mod cover for there’s no way to Pit you for your poster behavior that isn’t tied to your Mod Cape. Must be awesome to be you. Imagine, a mod on an Internet Board 24/7 – stuff dreams are made of. For the home-bound anyway. Go ahead, get angry and hit me with all kinds of rule-breaking. Not a ‘suicide by mod’ but rather your opportunity to get rid of someone who doesn’t kiss ass. It’s been a good 11 years, but I am fed up with you & your “All Mightiness.” Enjoy. Or don’t. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/865 "2013-01-17T00:27:48Z")
I think this thread would make more sense if I started drinking, desperately. Five hours ago. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/866 "2013-01-17T00:47:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > …Its not that its a waste of time. Its that you are merely stating the the obvious and they respond by asking for ironclad proof of it. The resolutions and the reasoning behind them are right there for all to see/read in each one of them. In that context, what “ironclad proof” can be asked for/given? Again, it’s all out there for the world to see…and the world has ruled _on the evidence_. Which many/most call “facts.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/867 "2013-01-17T01:03:21Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I think this thread would make more sense if I started drinking, desperately. It makes sense if the thread has been infiltrated by Mossad agents engaged in a “false flag” operation, posting bizarre nuttiness in an effort to cast Israel’s opponents in the worst possible light. In that case, it’s been spectacularly successful. 😕:eek::smack: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/868 "2013-01-17T01:23:21Z")
Naw. Why not kill them instead. Such bad guys that they are, it’s justified, no? [**IDF kills teenager in West Bank, fourth Palestinian death in a week**](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-kills-teenager-in-west-bank-fourth-palestinian-death-in-a-week-1.494135) > [@](#): > > … The shooting incident comes a day after Israeli soldiers shot and killed a Palestinian man in the Gaza Strip. Israel had no immediate comment Monday on the reported shooting of the man, who the Islamist Hamas-run Health Ministry said was a farmer, in the Gaza town of Beit Lahiya on the frontier with Israel. > > Palestinian officials said a gunshot to the head had critically wounded 21-year-old Mustafa Abu Jarad. Doctors in the hospital at Shifa where he was treated said he had died of his injuries. > > The Israel-Gaza frontier has been mostly calm since November when eight days of Palestinian rocket fire and Israeli air strikes killed 170 Palestinians and six Israelis. > > Since then, four Palestinians have been shot dead by Israeli troops along the Gaza border, most of them in an area Israel has deemed off-limits for several years, citing the risk of attacks on its soldiers. Clearly the way to deal with evil. PS-No chance you’d respond to my question, is there? Better to mock and ignore. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/869 "2013-01-17T01:38:32Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > BTW, I like it more when you think your insults are snide. Back to the chalkboard – though I doubt it’ll help you. Way too transparent. Then again you may just be “impaired” by sleep or otherwise. Right? :rolleyes: I have made no snide comments; I have only employed very mild sarcasm to point out your clear inability to argue with facts and logic. > [@RedFury](#): > > Big Man you are under your Mod cover for there’s no way to Pit you for your poster behavior that isn’t tied to your Mod Cape. Must be awesome to be you. Imagine, a mod on an Internet Board 24/7 – stuff dreams are made of. For the home-bound anyway. This is just silly at every level. First, there is no rule on this board that prohibits you from launching a Pit attack against me as a poster. Why you would evn make such a claim is beyond me, (unless you think that that, too, is a major conspiracy by the Jewish Lobby to give me inordinate control of the world). Second, I am hardly on this board 24/7. I not only have a 40 hour a week job (that keeps me away from any computer access for a minimum of 10 hours a day), but I also sleep from time to time. Throw in meals and time with my family along with time for reading, church activities, cycling, and other activities and there is simply no way that I could be here as often as you claim. > [@RedFury](#): > > Go ahead, get angry and hit me with all kinds of rule-breaking. Not a ‘suicide by mod’ but rather your opportunity to get rid of someone who doesn’t kiss ass. > > It’s been a good 11 years, but I am fed up with you & your “All Mightiness.” > > Enjoy. Or don’t. More utter silliness. First, you confuse boredom for anger. They are not the same. Then, you make wild insinuations that I am trying to get rid of you when I rather rarely post Mod notes to you and I have never issued you a Warning in the several years since we initiated the VBulletin Warning software. With that tenuous grasp of facts, I can see why you have so much trouble posting facts in these discussions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/870 "2013-01-17T01:53:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I would say that undue influence is influence of their arguments on our government that exceeds the merit of their arguments or the popular support for their positions. I can agree with that. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of course some of this is going to come down to your opinion of the merits of Israel’s positions on things like settlement activity and treatment of Palestinians but we do not tolerate this sort of behaviour from any of our other allies and yet we stand in opposition to almost the entirety of the rest of the world to defend them against the recognition of their oppressed neighbor. What does this have to do with the current discussion? I oppose the current settlement policy. (Heck, even Finn has indicated that its current implementation is not a good thing.) The point is whether AIPAC and other pro-Israeli lobbying groups exert undue influence that you and I have agreed could be identified by influence “on our government that exceeds the merit of their arguments or the popular support for their positions.” However, while the merits of arguments can be argued forever, I have seen no evidence that the positions the U.S. government has taken is outside the popular support for their positions. In other words, regardless whether they are right or wrong, the policies undertaken by the U.S. government are sufficiently close to the “will of the American people” to make the influence of Israeli lobbying efforts little more than background noise. Unless you can show evidence that that “will of the American people” was shaped by the pro-Israeli lobby using nefarious practices, you have not shown undue influence. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > After AIPAC’s leaders get caught crow about how much influence they have, you think there is no evidence that they have this influence? The claims of the AIPAC leadership might be deluded bragging or it might be simply a way to seek contributions by claiming that they have more power than they actually have. Until I see an example where they persuaded the U.S. government to carry out a program favoring Israel that a majority of Americans actively opposed, I am unpersuaded by such posturing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/871 "2013-01-17T03:07:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > …With that tenuous grasp of facts, I can see why you have so much trouble posting facts in these discussions. Lame. All of it. Facts you want? No prob: [**UN implicitly recognises Palestinian state, as US, Israel lament vote**](http://tribune.com.pk/story/472773/un-set-to-implicitly-recognise-palestinian-state-despite-us-israel-threats/) Won’t make a bit of difference. You’ve chosen where the coin falls as well – but don’t have the yarbles to come out and say so. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/872 "2013-01-17T04:06:37Z")
“Martha! Martha come quick!” “What is it, my darling???” "I found someone, on the internet, who disagrees with me. He says that my argument isn’t based on facts, and in fact I just quote other people’s editorials without any elaboration or analysis, and almost never post any facts at all. And when asked to cite facts I post other people’s opinions, most moften on unrelated issues, with great vehemence and intensity. And that still doesn’t satisfy him. " “You uncovered another Zionist mole, I’m so proud of you!” “Yeah, pretty badass, eh?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/873 "2013-01-17T04:47:33Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Lame. All of it. > > Facts you want? No prob: [**UN implicitly recognises Palestinian state, as US, Israel lament vote**](http://tribune.com.pk/story/472773/un-set-to-implicitly-recognise-palestinian-state-despite-us-israel-threats/) > > Won’t make a bit of difference. You’ve chosen where the coin falls as well – but don’t have the yarbles to come out and say so. More off topic stuff to avoid the discussion. More insults, (just as you recently whined about others). Where is the evidence that some pro-Israeli lobby is controlling the U.S.? (That is the current topic of this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/874 "2013-01-17T05:46:47Z")
All over the cites I’ve given. Guess scorn meets scorn. We shall soon see which derision wins. I bet it’s not the Israeli option under Netanyahu. Israel is NOT getting their apartheid state. Not going to happen . End of – talking to you anyway. Let the readers make up their mind. They aren’t dumb, you know? A platitude here and there won’t but shade the truth. And the shade will lift. Count on it. Enjoy your busy Mod day, **Tom**. Which is is simply awesome considering all you do. Bows. If I have the time… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/875 "2013-01-17T05:49:38Z")
Damn, the Internet sure is serious business. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/876 "2013-01-17T06:48:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I know! > Isn’t it just a drag when you just **know** that AIPAC controls public opinion and poilcy in the United States, and then some wise guy asks how you actually know that? Next thing you know, they’ll be asking for proof that vaccines cause autism, or something. I mean, isn’t it just **obvious?** > > Keep fighting the good fight Damuri and keep “If someone disagrees with me, it’s due to them being a Zionist patsy” as your go-to position. That’ll help you sway American opinion, that’s for sure. I never said AIPAC controls public opinion but they do have a habit of casting people who don’t sufficiently support Israel as anti-semites… kinda like some folks around here. Its not that I don’t think Israel is our ally or that we shouldn’t defend Israel against aggressors. I just don’t think that we should defend Israel when it is being a dick. > [@RedFury](#): > > Big Man you are under your Mod cover for there’s no way to Pit you for your poster behavior that isn’t tied to your Mod Cape. Must be awesome to be you. Imagine, a mod on an Internet Board 24/7 – stuff dreams are made of. For the home-bound anyway. > > Go ahead, get angry and hit me with all kinds of rule-breaking. Not a ‘suicide by mod’ but rather your opportunity to get rid of someone who doesn’t kiss ass. > > It’s been a good 11 years, but I am fed up with you & your “All Mightiness.” > > Enjoy. Or don’t. To be fair, I’ve found Tom to mod Israel threads very fairly, something that cannot be said of every mod. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I can agree with that. > > What does this have to do with the current discussion? I thought we were talking about the UN declaration in part. > [@](#): > > I oppose the current settlement policy. (Heck, even Finn has indicated that its current implementation is not a good thing.) I’m glad that you recognize how far out there Finn is. > [@](#): > > …I have seen no evidence that the positions the U.S. government has taken is outside the popular support for their positions. In other words, regardless whether they are right or wrong, the policies undertaken by the U.S. government are sufficiently close to the “will of the American people” to make the influence of Israeli lobbying efforts little more than background noise. I think that we very correctly are supporting Israel as an ally. But I think we end up defending their dickish behaviour. I don’t know if we would defend this sort of dickish behaviour in other allies but I think most of our other allies avoid putting us in that position by not being dicks. > [@](#): > > Unless you can show evidence that that “will of the American people” was shaped by the pro-Israeli lobby using nefarious practices, you have not shown undue influence. Some people on this board seemed to be pretty happy to buck the popular notions about 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq and believe that the American people were believing what they were being led to believe and as a reality check, they pointed to the general global opinion. Can i do the same thing? Can I point out that we are pretty lonely in our opposition to recognizing a Palestinian state. > [@](#): > > The claims of the AIPAC leadership might be deluded bragging or it might be simply a way to seek contributions by claiming that they have more power than they actually have. Until I see an example where they persuaded the U.S. government to carry out a program favoring Israel that a majority of Americans actively opposed, I am unpersuaded by such posturing. > **[Israel/Palestinians](https://www.pollingreport.com/israel.htm)** There are several areas where our policy is not supported by polling data. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/877 "2013-01-17T06:54:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > … and have you stopped beating your wife yet? 😃 The silence of the pro-Israel people on this subject speaks volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/878 "2013-01-17T07:01:06Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes of course. There is a huge amount of hostility out there towards Israel. So why would you be surprised that the Right has a lot of influence among Israeli voters? > > I kinda doubt it – I suspect you are confusing your wishes with reality. But in your view, what policies should Israel follow, going forward, to avoid being “fucked”? > > Ok, so these two security council resolutions are the sole source of your claim that it would be “illegal” for Israel to annex the West Bank? There’s a huge amount of hostility to Israel due to its near half-century illegal occupation of Palestinian territory and its treatment of Palestinians. I’m not confusing my wishes with reality at all. Israel is demographically and politically fucked. Israelis are going to end up like white people in the current South Africa. And I’m trying to point out to you that the UN recognises and has codified that under international law Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are illegal. The only peope claiming that Israel aren’t doing anything illegal are some israelis and Israel-Firsters. I’m so old I can remember when ignoring UN resolutions could be used as a legalcausus belli to preemptively invade the country doing the ignoring. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/879 "2013-01-17T07:05:37Z")
Anybody remember when Obama tried to appoint a guy called Chas Freeman to be the top US intelligence guy? He needed congressional approval and the Jewish lobby blocked his appointment because he wasn’t desperate to bomb Iran and had called for an even-handed approach to the Palestine-Israeli problem. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/880 "2013-01-17T09:56:11Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > There’s a huge amount of hostility to Israel due to its near half-century illegal occupation There is nothing “illegal” about any (Israeli) occupation, but more importantly there was plenty of hostility to Israel beforehand. Further, there are plenty of countries in the world which occupy territory claimed by other groups which get little attention. So the hostility towards Israel is not because of any occupation. > [@](#): > > of Palestinian territory What exactly is “Palestinian territory” and how is it defined? Do uncultivated parts of the former Ottoman empire count as “Palestinian territory”? If non-Arabs immigrated to the area in or around what is now Israel, and started using uncultivated land, have they just misappropriated “Palestinian territory”? After the Arabs chased all the Jews out of Gaza City, Eastern Jerusalem, and Hebron, did those areas become “Palestinian territory”? And are they “Palestinian territory” forever? Are there any places in or around Israel which are NOT “Palestinian territory”? If so, what? And how did they become so? I really would like a clear definition of “Palestinian territory” Also, is there such thing as “Jewish territory”? If so, where is it and how did it get to be “Jewish territory”? Are parts of the Ottoman Empire which were purchased by the Jewish National Fund included in “Jewish territory”? > [@](#): > > I’m not confusing my wishes with reality at all. Israel is demographically and politically fucked. Israelis are going to end up like white people in the current South Africa. Lol, too bad for you the Jewish percentage of births in Israel has been steadily rising for almost 10 years now. > [@](#): > > And I’m trying to point out to you that the UN recognises and has codified that under international law Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are illegal. Again, please define “Palestinian land” Also, I take it you are giving up on your claim that it would be illegal for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=45)